New 2022/23 transfers of Solti's Ring cycle.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This new transfer is being released in May, but at staggeringly high prices:
Vinyl LP set: £630
SACD set: £370
Dolby Atmos Blu-ray audio disc: Price TBA

Personally, I'm not interested in the vinyl edition at any price, but the SACD does seem worth investigating. However, if the Dolby Atmos disc can be played on an ordinary Blu-ray player, it might be the best option, just as long as it hasn't been meddled with to create fake multi-channel sound.

https://www.soltiring.com/?fbclid=IwAR34fdOUPAsxaYsyuRFGPUmOn8Y-QXJW-i5DsFeWjO7dVwjS6jockfuV-Y0

[Bryn]

This new transfer is being released in May, but at staggeringly high prices:
Vinyl LP set: £630
SACD set: £370
Dolby Atmos Blu-ray audio disc: Price TBA

Personally, I'm not interested in the vinyl edition at any price, but the SACD does seem worth investigating. However, if the Dolby Atmos disc can be played on an ordinary Blu-ray player, it might be the best option, just as long as it hasn't been meddled with to create fake multi-channel sound.


https://www.soltiring.com/?fbclid=Iw...wjS6jockfuV-Y0

If it was originally a multitrack recording, a remix to reflect the spacial layout of the orchestra and vocalists might be possible in Atmos.

[Dave2002]

If it was originally a multitrack recording, a remix to reflect the spacial layout of the orchestra and vocalists might be possible in Atmos.

However the blurb does suggest that the tapes have already been mixed down to two channels, or maybe there were only ever two channels recorded. Way back then probably several microphones were used, but they may have used fixed mix downs to two tracks for recordings. Do we actually know much about how things were done in those days?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

However the blurb does suggest that the tapes have already been mixed down to two channels, or maybe there were only ever two channels recorded. Way back then probably several microphones were used, but they may have used fixed mix downs to two tracks for recordings. Do we actually know much about how things were done in those days?

Decca used their own microphone "tree" - a group of three directional microphones, centrally placed - with a few other microphones where deemed necessary. It was the "tree" that was the basis of the final mix, so it wasn't exactly multi-channel.

[Ein Heldenleben]

However the blurb does suggest that the tapes have already been mixed down to two channels, or maybe there were only ever two channels recorded. Way back then probably several microphones were used, but they may have used fixed mix downs to two tracks for recordings. Do we actually know much about how things were done in those days?

There’s a brief shot of the tape machines in The Golden Ring . Two appear to be two track Studers . The middle machine looks like a four track possibly even 8 track machine raising the intriguing possibility that a ‘ remix ‘ in the sense of partially changing the stereo image or changing the relative levels of the mix (depending how it was split) might be possible. Impossible to tell.
Just watched the opening bit. 20 mikes were used (or so says Humphrey Burton)with what looks like 4 x U87’s slung on a boom for the singers. I reckon that multi track might well have been recording groups like this in addition to the three outputs of the famous Decca tree . I often wish recordings came with a log of how they did it but I guess no one wants to give away trade secrets.

[gradus]

There’s a brief shot of the tape machines in The Golden Ring . Two appear to be two track Studers . The middle machine looks like a four track possibly even 8 track machine raising the intriguing possibility that a ‘ remix ‘ in the sense of partially changing the stereo image or changing the relative levels of the mix (depending how it was split) might be possible. Impossible to tell.
Just watched the opening bit. 20 mikes were used (or so says Humphrey Burton)with what looks like 4 x U87’s slung on a boom for the singers. I reckon that multi track might well have been recording groups like this in addition to the three outputs of the famous Decca tree . I often wish recordings came with a log of how they did it but I guess no one wants to give away trade secrets.

Any idea why Decca grouped some string players together slightly apart from the orchestra, you can see the arrangement on the session photos?

[Dave2002]

There’s a brief shot of the tape machines in The Golden Ring . Two appear to be two track Studers . The middle machine looks like a four track possibly even 8 track machine raising the intriguing possibility that a ‘ remix ‘ in the sense of partially changing the stereo image or changing the relative levels of the mix (depending how it was split) might be possible. Impossible to tell.
Just watched the opening bit. 20 mikes were used (or so says Humphrey Burton)with what looks like 4 x U87’s slung on a boom for the singers. I reckon that multi track might well have been recording groups like this in addition to the three outputs of the famous Decca tree . I often wish recordings came with a log of how they did it but I guess no one wants to give away trade secrets.

Even if several different tapes were used with multi-track machines, it would still require some perhaps considerable effort to synchronise them. Also, were any special effects units used - such as artificial reverb - or were the tapes “simply” based on microphone feeds? Were the recordings made with “park and bark” settings, or was there any attempt to represent spatial effects and movement by the singers, as in live opera?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Even if several different tapes were used with multi-track machines, it would still require some perhaps considerable effort to synchronise them. Also, were any special effects units used - such as artificial reverb - or were the tapes “simply” based on microphone feeds? Were the recordings made with “park and bark” settings, or was there any attempt to represent spatial effects and movement by the singers, as in live opera?

Might be worth you watching the documentary The Golden Ring on YouTube. It’s one of the very few visual records of a classic piece of innovative recording and even for once credits the key engineer Gordon Parry. John Culshaws objective was to create an audio experience to rival that of being in the theatre - so if memory serves there are special effects e.g, anvil sounds in Das Rheingold . Given the superb acoustic of the recording space I would be suprised of any artificial reverb was used as in those days it sounded just that - artificial. From what I remember the singers don’t move much across the stereo landscape but that opens up another can of worms about how “representational “ the stereo image on this recording is and whether that was really Culshaws objective. For me I have difficulty placing the brass and other instrument sections in it in a way I don’t have on EMI recordings. Some people think that’s not the point as the aim was not to match the “middle of the stalls “ Opera experience. That opens up another can of worms for people who sit nearer the back where you can’t place the instruments at all much or people like me who sit as far away from trombones , trumpets and timps as possible.
On the sync side of things I would back the mains powered Studer A80’s to run in sync with each other better than the battery powered handheld Nagra* that the film crew would have been using on that documentary any day of the week.

*Which would be true if the documentary were not a multi camera OB recorded on video tape! Just imagine the BBC doing this now . The cost must have been eye watering .Three cheers for Humphrey Burton I say.

[HighlandDougie]

There’s a brief shot of the tape machines in The Golden Ring . Two appear to be two track Studers . The middle machine looks like a four track possibly even 8 track machine raising the intriguing possibility that a ‘ remix ‘ in the sense of partially changing the stereo image or changing the relative levels of the mix (depending how it was split) might be possible. Impossible to tell.
Just watched the opening bit. 20 mikes were used (or so says Humphrey Burton)with what looks like 4 x U87’s slung on a boom for the singers. I reckon that multi track might well have been recording groups like this in addition to the three outputs of the famous Decca tree . I often wish recordings came with a log of how they did it but I guess no one wants to give away trade secrets.

The booklet for the new set (i.e "Rheingold") goes into the recording/remastering at some length. On the microphones, "(Gordon) Parry's genius was to ally the natural bloom of the Sofiensaal with a soundstage of pinpoint precision. Surprisingly he eschewed the increasingly fashionable omni-directional microphones ... instead favouring a tree of three cardioid Neumann KM56s with left and right outriggers of Neumann M49s in wide cardioid formation. The vocal microphones - three suspended on a boom covering the Sofiensaal's stage - were also M49s with their cardioid pattern finely adjusted to have control of the voices without clouding the orchestral balance." Makes no sense to me but experts like EH might understand it all. I'm ashamed to say that, having eventually arrived last month (via Parcelforce when not on strike) courtesy of JPC's Christmas discount, I haven't had a chance to sit down and listen to it properly.

"

[LHC]

There is an article on the transfer in November's Gramophone which provides some more details which might answer a few of the questions being asked here.

In summary, the Solti Ring was first transferred to CD in the early 80s (nearly 40 years ago) when digital remastering was still a relatively new 'art form'. These early digital transfers of analogue material were often felt to be overly bright and aggressive sounding, and tape hiss can be heard on some of the transfers.

In 1997 James Lock and Gordon Parry undertook a new digital transfer for Decca. For this they had access to Culshaw's original 4-track session tapes. They also made use of the then new CEDAR noise reduction system to remove excessive tape hiss. Unfortunately, this also meant that both high and low frequencies inherent in the original recordings were removed. They also took it upon themselves to improve on Culshaw's final mastering and remixed the recordings making use of some alternative takes to correct editing errors or improve moments where there was some distortion in the original take.

In 2012 Decca released a hi-definition transfer on Blu-ray audio in 48/24 audio. This new transfer was based on the 1997 mastering by James Lock and Gordon Parry. Although this was by far the best sounding transfer of the Solti Ring to date, because it used the 1997 re-mastering, there was a considerable reduction in high and low frequencies as a result of the earlier use of CEDAR.

For this new transfer, Dominic Fyfe and Philip Siney have made use of Culshaw's 2-channel mastertapes (astonishingly, in the period since 1997 Decca have lost the original 4-track session tapes!). The 38 tapes were transferred to digital at 192/24 without noise reduction. Following the transfer, they used digital equalisation to remove hiss while retaining as much musical information as possible. According to Fyfe, they were able to hear information in the bass and at the top end that they hadn't heard before.

They have tried to be true to Culshaw's original conception, and as well as using the original LPs as a guide to how the recording should sound, they also had access to Culshaw's marked-up vocal scores, so they could check things like the sound effects he was trying to achieve.

It is claimed that the stereo transfers on LP and SACD now sound much better than the earlier transfers, and are closer to the original mastertapes and Culshaw's vision for the recording.

The Dolby Atmos spatial audio remix is in surround sound, and is an attempt to recreate the ambience of the Sofiensaal which was the venue for the recordings, as well as amplifying some of the effects Culshaw was trying to achieve (for example, making it sound as if the Rhinemaidens are under the stage for the end of Das Rheingold). To do this they have made judicious use of artificial reverb. They have tried not to go too far in this, so its not like early quad recordings with sounds coming from all four corners of the room. To answer Bryn's question, as they were working from 2-channel mastertapes, this is clearly an artifically created surround sound mix.

As others have noted, the sets are very expensive. The complete set on SACD will be £370, while on vinyl it will be £630 (according to the Decca shop, the LP sets are already sold out, even though they are not due to be released until May)

As far as I am aware, the Blu-ray audio which contains the Dolby Atmos surround mix will only be available as part of the complete sets, and won't be sold separately (or at least not yet).

I already have the Solti Ring on LP in the individual sets as they were released, on CD (the early 80s box set) and on Blu-ray audio. I can't really justify spending such a large amount of money on a recording I already have in three other versions. However, I might buy the SACD highlights disc to see if I can hear the difference between this transfer and the 2012 Blu-ray audio

[Ein Heldenleben]

The booklet for the new set (i.e "Rheingold") goes into the recording/remastering at some length. On the microphones, "(Gordon) Parry's genius was to ally the natural bloom of the Sofiensaal with a soundstage of pinpoint precision. Surprisingly he eschewed the increasingly fashionable omni-directional microphones ... instead favouring a tree of three cardioid Neumann KM56s with left and right outriggers of Neumann M49s in wide cardioid formation. The vocal microphones - three suspended on a boom covering the Sofiensaal's stage - were also M49s with their cardioid pattern finely adjusted to have control of the voices without clouding the orchestral balance." Makes no sense to me but experts like EH might understand it all. I'm ashamed to say that, having eventually arrived last month (via Parcelforce when not on strike) courtesy of JPC's Christmas discount, I haven't had a chance to sit down and listen to it properly.

"

Very interesting thanks. I wonder whether the four separate stereo mic arrays were grouped to make up the 8 track multi track ?
I’m very far from being an expert. Cardioid means heart shaped ( as in cardiac arrest ) so what’s called the acceptance angle of the microphone is heart shaped - so it picks up mainly sound at the front and a small amount at the back on either side of the mic . Omni directional is pretty much what it says - taking sound , like our ears from all around. The other common. types are hyper cardioid - usually used in television gun mikes ( the ones with the long fluffy covers ) or figure of 8 which have approx circular acceptance angles either side of the mic and have a very useful dead side at 90 degrees to the microphone face. Some mics can have these acceptance angles remotely varied , even now I believe in post production. I see the vocal mikes were M49 not U87’s .70 years on these were recently reissued with a price tag of €8500 . That’s the great thing about audio - some tech will never be bettered.

I would be very interested to know whether you can detect any difference between the older Solti Ring which you may have on CD or have access to via streamers and the remaster.

[Ein Heldenleben]

LHC Thanks for the great post . So that machine WAS a 4 track . And they lost it . Oh Wehe…
If the remix turns up on Qobuz I might run a blind comparison session with my CDs with Mrs H switching between the two (or not) while I leave the room. Such is the insanity of audiophiles…

[richardfinegold]

I can’t be much help on this one. I don’t have a Dolby Atmos set up although I ama surround sound enthusiast,and then Opera isn’t my bailiwick. I have heard some Beatles excerpts in Atmos at a brick and mortar dealer. It’s impressive but I wasn’t able to hear a Classical demo and if one doesn’t currently have Atmos setup ultimately irrelevant.
I’d be interested to know if the Blu Ray or SACD offers different options, such a Atmos and conventional 5.1 surround, as well as 2 channels.
Finally, as another poster states, how many times are we willing to buy re releases of the same recording? Audiophiles are the worst of the FOMO crowd (Fear of Missing Out)

[LHC]

I can’t be much help on this one. I don’t have a Dolby Atmos set up although I ama surround sound enthusiast,and then Opera isn’t my bailiwick. I have heard some Beatles excerpts in Atmos at a brick and mortar dealer. It’s impressive but I wasn’t able to hear a Classical demo and if one doesn’t currently have Atmos setup ultimately irrelevant.
I’d be interested to know if the Blu Ray or SACD offers different options, such a Atmos and conventional 5.1 surround, as well as 2 channels.
Finally, as another poster states, how many times are we willing to buy re releases of the same recording? Audiophiles are the worst of the FOMO crowd (Fear of Missing Out)

The SACDs are stereo only. The Atmos mix is only available on the Blu ray audio, or on Apple Music.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I’ve got the 2007 remix on the CD and the 2012 re re mix is available on Qobuz .I think I’ll save the money for something else.
The 2007 Cd sounds fine.
I once read an analysis which showed that every Led Zeppelin remix issue introduced at least another 2dbs of compression. The aim of these Ring remixes seems to be largely about reducing tape his which is well nigh impossible without impacting on audible frequencies.