Phones in concerts

[edashtav]

Yes Ed. my thoughts entirely - I only really dropped Pierné in, and the Milsteins' promotion of the idea, as a provocation. It seems obvious that Proust didn't want us to know what sonata was the model for Vinteuil's, if indeed there was just one. More likely it's the generality of the milieu, perhaps, that's described. Ravel's early Sonata posthume (1897) and Delius's Sonata in B Op. Posth. (1892) are also typical of the period....and not a million miles away from each other - Ravel was familiar with Delius's style, and even made piano reductions of Delius's opera Margot la Rouge!
They moved in different circles from Proust, Hahn etc but it's the general fin de circle 'feel' in these, and other composers of the time - for example Lili Boulanger's violin/piano works that evoke Paris of those times - did you know she shared a concert at Salle Pleyel with Delius? I wonder how they got on!

When in Paris I stay in the flat (in the 14th) of a relative of one of Pierné's publishers (Heugel) - they published many composers of the time - but I have soft spot for Pierné.

Latest obsession is with Jean Cras, do you know the Suite en duo, for flute and harp? Juliette Hurel made a lovely recording on Timpani 1C 1179.

I hadn't encountered either the name or music or Jean Cras until you dropped him into this conversation, Roger. My word, a War hero as well. I've tried the Suite en Duo on YouTube and it's stuffed with fresh air and nicely turned ideas. I'm looking forward to his late Piano Concerto. Surely, his lengthy Polyphème opera needs exploring?

I rather like Jean Rivier's work do you?

[Pulcinella]

A shareable Times article:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cacf91b1-5811-4a62-b982-b10b054cbab4?shareToken=b90ca965a41be2af0d246a27a1812488

[kernelbogey]

I wonder what people do with their films. Do they ever watch them? It seems to have become a kind of reflex - if you don't make a video, you weren't there, man (to adapt the old Vietnam War joke).

[Roger Webb]

I hadn't encountered either the name or music or Jean Cras until you dropped him into this conversation, Roger. My word, a War hero as well. I've tried the Suite en Duo on YouTube and it's stuffed with fresh air and nicely turned ideas. I'm looking forward to his late Piano Concerto. Surely, his lengthy Polyphème opera needs exploring?

I rather like Jean Rivier's work do you?

I'm glad you like the Cras, yes he was a naval officer most of his life - ending up as a rear- admiral land-based in Paris. He was almost entirely self-taught, he went to Duparc for a few lessons privately but that was it....amazing! There are recordings of all his works on Timpani label on thirteen CDs, incl. Polyphème on three of them. This is obviously influenced by Pelléas but quite an astonishing achievement and well worth reviving I would have thought - I think there was a run in Brussels, or maybe Luxembourg when they made the recording, conducted by our own Bramwell Tovey....sadly lost to us last year.

Of the orchestral works, the piano concerto is perhaps the weakest in some ways, written as it was for his daughter Colette who married Alexandre Tansman, moved to the USA and made a name for herself as a concert pianist. His orch. masterpiece is the large triptych 'Journal de Bord', actually written at sea and although indebted to La Mer, but can take its place as one of the greatest of sea pieces.

Other chamber stuff, the string qt. is lovely and shows his Breton roots, and the piano qnt are well worth a listen.



Thanks for the Jean Rivier nudge...I don't know him - I'm straight on Qobuz this morning!

[oddoneout]

I wonder what people do with their films. Do they ever watch them? It seems to have become a kind of reflex - if you don't make a video, you weren't there, man (to adapt the old Vietnam War joke).

As you say I think it is now a reflex reaction. In some respects it's nothing new - folks have always felt the need to have a memento of a place or perhaps an event and souvenirs have been an industry through the centuries. And who can forget the evenings of holiday photo viewing - acceptable within the family, but it was part of the social scene at one time, the level of boredom depending on the standard and type of refreshments on offer.
It's the scale, and its impact on those around, which has changed now.
I don't know about looking at the material subsequently - there will be an initial viewing to select(with or without adequate scrutiny...) bits to "share" - but after that?

[Ein Heldenleben]

I wonder what people do with their films. Do they ever watch them? It seems to have become a kind of reflex - if you don't make a video, you weren't there, man (to adapt the old Vietnam War joke).

That is a very good question. It’s a form of validation isn’t it ? I was there . But are you ? Have a friend who’s a top rate documentary cameraman who’s sometimes asked to film weddings - he never does because he wants to “ be there” . When you are filming or recording music you can never really be completely “in the moment “ you always have to give some attention to either technical things or really and unnaturally concentrating on what people are saying. Even if you’re just filming as an amateur it’s a distraction and a filtering of the original experience. Put the phones down and live I say.

[LHC]

I wonder what people do with their films. Do they ever watch them? It seems to have become a kind of reflex - if you don't make a video, you weren't there, man (to adapt the old Vietnam War joke).

Post them on Facebook, Instagram etc. along with the carefully edited selfies to show what a wonderful life they have.

[duncan]

Post them on Facebook, Instagram etc. along with the carefully edited selfies to show what a wonderful life they have.

I'm sure there is an element of this: the curated life.

I occasionally post a picture of curtain calls on social media. ENO have recently started to encourage this, far too little far too late alas. In my case it is to recommend a production to my few concert-going friends but also to normalise the idea of attending classical events amongst my much larger group of acquaintances who might be classical-curious but never step inside a concert hall or opera house.

This group - educated, otherwise cultured, affluent folk in their 30s-60s - often have some odd conceptions of what these places are like and who they might find there. This incomprehension, from the historical audience for classical music, has been growing for various reasons over the last 40 years. Classical music does need to consider how to renew its audience whilst not alienating the current one and performers. I imagine this what Emma Stenning thinks she is addressing. I think her solution is spectacularly wrong but, like it or not, social media does now play a considerable part in how people now view the world [this forum is of course a form of social media]. Steven Hough offers a great example of how use it to make his point with characteristic wit and elegance. Stenning could learn from him.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Good points Duncan. I go to the BSO concerts at Exeter. The programming has little to frighten the horses Brahms PC 2 , RVW London being a couple of typical highlights. But about a quarter to a third of tickets (very reasonably priced ) remain unsold at each concert and the concert hall is in a University with thousands of students, academics, retired academics and other staff.
The one concert that did sell out :Classic FM Hall Of Fame - Carmen , Grieg PC , Gershwin in Paris . And no Symphony - I’m beginning to wonder whether, even amongst people who like classical music the ability to sit
through a symphony, let alone an opera ,has withered away.

[cria]

...I’m beginning to wonder whether the ability to sit through a symphony, let alone an opera has withered away.

delete 'ability' insert 'wish'

[Master Jacques]

[...] This group - educated, otherwise cultured, affluent folk in their 30s-60s - often have some odd conceptions of what these places are like and who they might find there. This incomprehension, from the historical audience for classical music, has been growing for various reasons over the last 40 years. Classical music does need to consider how to renew its audience whilst not alienating the current one and performers [...]

I don't doubt the 'affluent', but I wonder about the 'cultured', or even what that might mean in the mid-21st century. The word used to apply to the educated middle-classes who had a broad if not necessarily deep knowledge of the arts and sciences, but that broad knowledge with its lattice of references - the Bible, Shakespeare, Classical music (in its specific rather than misleadingly general sense), and post-Renaissance to impressionist and abstract art - has disappeared, in this country at least. It's very different in Poland, Germany or Hungary, to name just three obvious countries where the "high arts" are still perceived to have cultural value.

The incomprehension which you so rightly and depressingly note, is due to this country's economic and educational faltering over the last half-century, and our retreat to a Gradgrind-like regime of "facts, facts, facts", with the consequent rise in mental illness and a corresponding fall in (genuine) emotional intelligence. All orchestras and opera companies can do is start appealing to a traditional constituency - the eternally aging, with money and time to spare - rather than appealing to non-existent, youthful - and largely mythical - communities who wouldn't be interested in principle, even if they could be "reached".

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks for the Jean Rivier nudge...I don't know him - I'm straight on Qobuz this morning!

Jean Rivier is probably closest to Albert Roussel of the better-known early modern French composers, and therefore not a million kilometers from Jacques Ibert. So, if Roussel and/or Ibert is/are to your liking, you will probably like Rivier's music too.

Thanks to yourself and Edashtav for introducing me to the name of Cras, whom I must investigate. I hadn't heard of him, and yet I am constantly on about overlooked French C20 composers!

[Roger Webb]

Jean Rivier is probably closest to Albert Roussel of the better-known early modern French composers, and therefore not a million kilometers from Jacques Ibert. So, if Roussel and/or Ibert is/are to your liking, you will probably like Rivier's music too.

Thanks to yourself and Edashtav for introducing me to the name of Cras, whom I must investigate. I hadn't heard of him, and yet I am constantly on about overlooked French C20 composers!

Thanks for that, I've had a look on Qobuz, there's a bit of Rivier.....probably a bit more hiding to be teased out, the search facility doesn't reveal everything in one go - even French composers on a French streaming site!

Roussel is very much to my liking - in fact our first night in France, if using Newhaven - Dieppe was spent in a lovely hotel at Vasterival where Roussel lived....a walk down to his house after dinner was magical!

As Ed. did the best piece to start with is probably 'Suite en duo' for flute and harp, although the string trio is a very good example of this hard-to-write-for form. Timpani 1C 1179 gives both, and the
Quintette for flute, harp and string trio.

Next on the list of Bretons is Paul le Flem!!

[vinteuil]

Roussel is very much to my liking - in fact our first night in France, if using Newhaven - Dieppe was spent in a lovely hotel at Vasterival where Roussel lived....a walk down to his house after dinner was magical!

... I hope you have also visited the marvellous church and the cimetière marin at nearby Varengeville-sur-Mer where he is buried -

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Saint-Valery_de_Varengeville-sur-Mer

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimeti%C3%A8re_marin_de_Varengeville-sur-Mer

.

[Roger Webb]

... I hope you have also visited the marvellous church and the cimetière marin at nearby Varengeville-sur-Mer where he is buried -

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Saint-Valery_de_Varengeville-sur-Mer

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimeti%C3%A8re_marin_de_Varengeville-sur-Mer

.

Yes of course, the church immortalised in paintings by Monet! Also buried in the churchyard is Georges Braque who had designed the windows. And of course nearby Bois des Moutiers designed by Lutyens, gardens by Jekyll - we were allowed into the salon, although it wasn't open officially, to see the piano played by Debussy and many other visiting musicians.


Like a lot of this part of France, the British en route take little notice of areas near Channel ports, we often stayed in Arques la Bataille in a fabulous Manoir for a fraction of the cost of a hotel room in Honfleur, much as I still love that town.