Brahms Op 114 Op 115 Contasts

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

sprog has to do a major essay and is contemplating these works .... the LATENESS issue and the impact of Muhlfeld in Brahms retirement are contextual ... the pieces were written simultaneously 114 is concise, strutured and 115 expressive and discursive ... the Trio colouring is darker than the lighter Quintet....

any thoughts from m'learned friends?

[EdgeleyRob]

Roehre's your man but I think he's still on holiday.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

sprog has to do a major essay and is contemplating these works .... the LATENESS issue and the impact of Muhlfeld in Brahms retirement are contextual ... the pieces were written simultaneously 114 is concise, strutured and 115 expressive and discursive ... the Trio colouring is darker than the lighter Quintet....

any thoughts from m'learned friends?

A few random mutterings:

Don't neglect the 'cello in these works, which emphasize the "lateness" issue (I'm going to avoid using the clichéd "autumnal". Except that once.) Robert Hausmann was (?"nearly"?) as "influential" on Brahms as Mühfeld on the "late" Brahms sound (the Second 'cello Sonata, the Double Concerto, and he was the 'cellist whom Brahms had in mind for the first performances of both these works). The expressive, "yearning" timbre of the 'cello in its highest register (sometimes in the 5tet playing higher than the Viola: eg. bars 14-17 of the 1st movt). The 'cello "leads" (presents the first ideas) the Clarinet in the "Sonata Form" movts (1 & 4) of the Trio; the Clarinet "leads" the middle movts (2 & 3). Both are resolutely "in the Minor", but the ending of the 5tet is particularly "embittered": the last Movt starts in a "genial" mood and presents many hints of a move to the Major mode, but the return of the work's opening at the end not only reaffirms the "minor-ness", the Phrygian C naturals present a stark denial of any possibility of a "positive" ending. "Stark", "cold", "enervation": "Brahms the Progressive" at his hardest.
Ending of Trio is more abrupt: curtailed.
High Clarinet lines are always legato: none of the "Russian School" quicksilver brilliance.
Piano part mainly in the lower register, with brief but "telling" chiaroscuro provided by glittering high keys.
"Brilliance" avoided: "Lighter", Major-mode Music is predominantly "wistful".

Hope this of some use, even if only to fire "sprog's" indignation that anyone could get it so wrong!

Best Wishes.

[Don Petter]

Interesting that I recently touched on my perceptions of the general differences in another recent post, from which I quote (Op.115 would be in the first camp):

I do have a theory that much, if not all, of Brahms' chamber music can be divided into two types. In one, the musical thread is quite clear, with thematic progressions plain for all to hear, while still being subject to an infinity of interpretations. I would cite the three violin sonatas and the Horn Trio as examples. There is no debate at any one moment where they are going next.

Others, and the two string quintets and the Clarinet Trio come to mind, are not quite so obvious (though none the worse for that), and need good interpretations to make 'sense' of them. Perhaps Op.51/2 is an example of the latter, and the music cannot be allowed to play itself, but needs some more expert guidance.

I feel I may be getting into deep musicological water here, however, and with no formal training I'd better shut up.

I shall be interested to hear from others of their observations on such contrasts.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... oh, and the use of the low, chalumeau register of the Clarinet (underneath the 'cello/Viola theme at bar 14 of the 5tet, or in the "Gypsy" doodlings in the 2nd movt.)
... and lots of melodies presented in thirds or sixths.

Don Petter: I like your theory; it helps illustrate why Brahms so often wrote pieces in "pairs". But I'd question the phrase "there is no debate at any one moment where they are going next" as it makes it sound as if the Music is predictable (which it ain't) rather than logical (which it ai). I'd prefer, if you'll forgive my presumption, "there's no doubt at any one moment where the material has come from".

Best Wishes!

[Don Petter]

Don Petter: I like your theory; it helps illustrate why Brahms so often wrote pieces in "pairs". But I'd question the phrase "there is no debate at any one moment where they are going next" as it makes it sound as if the Music is predictable (which it ain't) rather than logical (which it ai). I'd prefer, if you'll forgive my presumption, "there's no doubt at any one moment where the material has come from".

Best Wishes!

Thanks. Indeed, I didn't want to imply predictability in any bad sense, and I think your rephrasing is more apt.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

thank you most helpful ....