Online survey 2014

[LeMartinPecheur]

Well, responding to that let off a bit of steam and set me up for return to wage slavery tomorrow

Did manage some positives about specialist programmes like CD Review, Early Music Show, This Week's Composer but probably beat the same drums as fellow boreders on Breakfast, In Tune etc.

[french frank]

I understand why Radio 3 commissions The Wire - new drama by emerging writers - but last night's repeat of the excellent Mother of Him would have been ideal for Radio 4's 21:00 Friday Drama slot, where it would have been heard by many more listeners.

And that was a frequent puzzle when we had a thriving drama board: just what was it that made a 'Radio 4' drama (where a far bigger audience would hear it) and what made a Radio 3 drama.

I would take the view that Radio 3 should focus on the uncompromising drama which a Radio 4 audience would switch off, grumbling. If there's a cost problem (and drama is very expensive) I would even concede that once a fortnight - at a reasonable time, like 8pm on a Sunday where it used to be - would be one option. I know I can only ever think of one example of "Radio 3 drama", but to give the example again: the trilogy of symbolist plays by Maeterlinck. Or the Calderón play, Daughter of the Air, which I think was an NT production. Or Lorca ...

[pastoralguy]

It would - I have an elderly friend who shuns Breakfast, and looks at the Radio Times to see what will be the full length work on Essential Classics. If that interests him he listens, otherwise he shuns that programme. But he hardly leaves his flat all day so if he looks at the RT and sees something that interests him he listens, and otherwise he can play his CDs.

If most people can't do that, they either have to rely on the programmes being broadcast at times when they can listen - or use Listen Again as a substitute. The amount the people use the OD facility varies - some people use it more than live radio, others don't use it at all. I suppose I would look at it: Do you think you're getting a radio service with station X, or are you just getting a few programmes here and there, and if you're prepared to use LA? Listening patterns vary from station to station but most if not all have the same basics: breakfast time gets most, afternoons have a daytime low at about 3.30pm, teatime drivetime picks up, evenings get less, gradually tailing off to near nothing (Radio 3 keeps its early evening audience better because of the concert).

On the whole, people WILL feel disgruntled if the times which are most convenient for them to listen become no-go areas. They don't want to sit at their computers for their main listening.

Well, I suppose you can please some of the people all the time and all the people some of the time but you can't please all the people all the time... (To employ an old cliche...)

I've written here before about how my life fell apart in 1991 and I ended up working night shift in a petrol station. This was in the days before TTN and I used to despair about Radio 3 finishing at 23.30. If it happened today I could tailor my lonely listening by using 'listen again'.

It's simple - not everyone likes everything. I don't like jazz and Wednesday afternoon is dismissed in our household as 'the God botherer slot' and there's usually a race to turn the radio off ASAP! But that doesn't mean that it should be discontinued simply because I don't like it. The morning slot gets a lot of stick but I really don't want the last movement of Mahler 9 with my cornflakes or Schoenberg's second string quartet on my drive to work.

Nothing is perfect. Get over it.

[french frank]

Nothing is perfect. Get over it.

Thanks, PG. I spent some time over trying to show that this was NOT about not liking some things or wanting everything to be what one wanted 24/7.

[Honoured Guest]

And that was a frequent puzzle when we had a thriving drama board: just what was it that made a 'Radio 4' drama (where a far bigger audience would hear it) and what made a Radio 3 drama.

How I think of it, is that the station controllers (R3 and R4, and very occasionally R2) schedule Drama, usually in regular slots or series or strands (and also occasionally as one-off "events") and then appoint individuals to programme each of these strands, commissioning from BBC Drama and from independent producers, and rebroadcasting some existing programmes.

Like Russ, I'd worry if Radio 3 originated fewer Dramas each year because it would then be virtually impossible to sustain the current mix. But I think it would benefit everyone if more dramas were repeated in different slots (including some R4-originated drama being rebroadcast on Radio 3), as was quite common in the 1970s when I started listening. To be fair, Radio 4 Extra is already doing this to some extent, by repeating drama which originated in many places across the BBC.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, but Radio 2 has moved on and Your Hundred Best Tunes has no place on Radio 2 today.

And why not? Has there been a decree from on high? Or is it because they except Radio 3 to broadcast a similar programme called Breakfastessentialclassicsthechoirintunesaturdaycl assics?

[pastoralguy]

Thanks, PG. I spent some time over trying to show that this was NOT about not liking some things or wanting everything to be what one wanted 24/7.

Glad to be of help...

[antongould]

And why not? Has there been a decree from on high? Or is it because they except Radio 3 to broadcast a similar programme called Breakfastessentialclassicsthechoirintunesaturdaycl assics?

As was mentioned on another thread ".....There are an awful lot of people 60+ who still cling to the music of their youth........" and at these people (plus the 40+ and 50+ groups) Radio 2 is now targeted. Today's highlight was Your 100 Best Guitar Riffs - hardly the stuff of Mr. Keith ......

[Honoured Guest]

And why not? Has there been a decree from on high? Or is it because they except Radio 3 to broadcast a similar programme called Breakfastessentialclassicsthechoirintunesaturdaycl assics?

I don't know the reason "why", but what happened at Radio 2 was that Your Hundred Best Tunes was perpetuated without change until Alan Keith died and could not then be continued in any form because it was about three decades out of date. If the programme had evolved with the times, with subtle shifts in content, form, presentation, etc., it would probably still be running today, like Songs of Praise on BBC1. Instead, it was treated as Alan Keith's personal show and preserved as an archaic living relic of the distant past, appealing to the same people (with no renewals) until they dropped one by one off the perch.

I tend to agree that there was a very good case for Radio 2 retaining a classical music dj show, but Radio 2 made it impossible by retaining Alan Keith for so long.

I hazily recall that Melodies for You, earlier on Sundays, survived a bit longer, but eventually morphed into Alan Titchmarsh, who featured much easy listening and oldies with a few light classics thrown in. And he's now been replaced by Michael Ball, with the easy listening and oldies remaining, but not the light classics as far as I know.

In my opinion, if Radio 3 had remained exactly unchanged, with Patricia Hughes trrrrilling and cooooing, etc., then its audience would have gone the same way as Alan Keith's Hundred Best Tunes and would by now be facing extinction.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In my opinion, if Radio 3 had remained exactly unchanged, with Patricia Hughes trrrrilling and cooooing, etc., then its audience would have gone the same way as Alan Keith's Hundred Best Tunes and would by now be facing extinction.

This is more a "conjecture" than an "opinion". As it is, R3 has, in your words "evolved with the times" - and has fewer listeners as a consequence: the "audience" may have "gone" in a different way from that of Alan Keith's Your Hundred Best Tunes, but they've still "gone". This, somehow, is meant to secure it from "facing extinction"?

[Richard Tarleton]

In my opinion, if Radio 3 had remained exactly unchanged, with Patricia Hughes trrrrilling and cooooing, etc., then its audience would have gone the same way as Alan Keith's Hundred Best Tunes and would by now be facing extinction.

A straw man, HG - is anyone suggesting that? Of course R3 has (had) evolved with the times, the programme I started with, under William Glock, a very different beast to that of Nicholas Kenyon (whom I also look back on fondly).

A reminder from Wiki:

William Glock served as BBC Controller of Music from 1959 to 1972. From 1960 to 1973, he was also Controller of The Proms, and took over personal single leadership of The Proms whereas formerly a committee had been in charge of them. During his tenure, Glock arranged performances and commissions of works by many contemporary composers, such as Arnold, Boulez, Berio, Carter, Dallapiccola, Peter Maxwell Davies, Gerhard, Henze, Ligeti, Lutosławski, Lutyens, Maw, Messiaen, Nono, Stockhausen, and Tippett. Davies dedicated three works to Glock: Symphony No. 1 (1976), Unbroken Circle (1984) and Mishkenot (1988). In Proms programmes Glock expanded as well the presence of music by past composers such as Purcell, Cavalli, Monteverdi, Byrd, Palestrina, Dufay, Dunstaple and Machaut, as well as less-often performed works of Bach and Haydn.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Nicholas Kenyon (whom I also look back on fondly).

Good Heavens, RT! Why? The only Controller since the 1950s who makes RW look good!

(IMvHO, of course.)





But I'm correct!

[french frank]

I'm a relatively late arrival to Radio 3, the end of Drummond-beginning of Kenyon era, so was never fully aware of what went before (certainly no fond memories of Patricia Hughes et al). But I do know that, over and over again, people have complained of the Kenyon reign. And even I, a newbie, disliked Brian Kay's Sunday Morning and was appalled by Paul Gambaccini's Morning Collection. When Roger Wright began we saw a lot of hopeful signs of recovery (e.g. CD Masters), but it was a characteristic of his reign that we then saw the gears jammed into reverse and in my VHO it became worse than even what I remember of Kenyon. Drummond's reign, for all I think he was a terrible 'leader', had some marvellous ideas. Indeed, Kenyon had good ones too.

But, yes, 'straw man' is exactly what the argument is for Radio 3 remaining unchanged: there are things that are good to change, things that are bad. At present we see the baby thrown out with the bath water. For me, Roger Wright is the worst, because the basic aim on which he threw everything - getting a broader audience of new listeners - was a) flawed and b) unsuccessful. Unfortunately, the lack of success has also been very damaging. He has covered it up with a few fig leaves like 'a live concert every evening' and high profile publicity-seeking composerthons.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

that survey question about 'little knowledge' bothers me considerably ... it is far too imprecise i can readily categorise myself as someone who has 'little knowledge' but compared to many this would not be so .... it is not the real issue any way since the demographic with 'little knowledge' is not a usable specification of a target group ..... like saying you want to empty Ullswater with a teaspoon since those with 'little knowledge' must be in excess of 95% of the population [watched University Challenge recently?]

but there are people who have an interest in Classical Music [Jazz/World/Drama/Poetry &c] and would like to develop their knowledge and build and/or maintain their interest and this number is very probably greater than the R3 current audience size

there have been surveys of the audience for Jazz and Classical Music which i have referred to both here and previously and this [new to me]

the R3 audience research on Jazz shows a lot could be done to reach more people [graveyard time slots] and it could well be that they could double the audience by making less concessions to popularity and playing harder edge Jazz, this does not entail playing teh typical noise factory of the UK and DGR in the 70s and 80s; there are excellent artists and ensembles they do not cover at all ...

the Suits@Aunt are very bad at choices and evaluations [read Carpenter again!] their craven and mistaken judgements in favour of the mass audience - [oh ye of 'little knowledge'] seem to go back to the panic and managerial psychosis induced by the appearance of ITV since when the audience counters have held more and more sway as the Govt of the day beat them up for the news and current affairs slant or Murdoch Rothermere & Guardian Media lobbied hard for £££££££££££££££££ they could not win in competition with the web site

in truth there is a national psychosis in handling both the NHS and BBC [the Utilities now owned by foreign Governments as well] since they are assets belonging to the people, not the Crown nor the Rich ... so the Establishment is always dancing with uncertainty around their nature and destiny and would like to be shot of them [for the right price and commissions of course]

those with 'little knowledge' are not the right target ... it is evident that those with little or no interest are not the target for such as R3, those with some or budding interest are - on this criterion the Jazz audience is poorly addressed and will not be enlarged by adding smooth to the mix with free Pepsi


Suits@Aunt do need to rethink their radio stations but should be aware that mass advertising and mass audience strategies are not required to build specialist station audiences ... these latter build on interest and therefore require quality of service and sustained listening to build audience size, not Pepsi Babble Chat ... even though this works fittingly on R2 [if the presenters are good at it!]

imho if R3 wants to squarely address its potential audience it needs to be a lot more interesting to people with at least some curiosity not a lot more appealing [one might say obsequious] to a fantasy of large numbers of 'little knowledge' and this would entail accepting that the present strategies are failing

so the question would be 'How well does R3 serve people with some interest in Classical Music who would like to know [a lot] more?'

art is not elitist it is sectarian

[Richard Tarleton]

Perhaps I'm remembering his reign at the Proms (better?) - he did stage a rather brutal clear-out of old presenters as I recall, even affecting their pension rights. But it was still recognisably R3.....

PS and I don't remember P Hughes trilling and cooing particularly, if asked to compare her to a musical instrument a basset clarinet springs to mind....My abiding memory of her is presenting a Julian Bream recital from St John's Smith Square in summer of 1970, just before my finals