"the most avant-garde thing that a jazz musician could do today is try to straight up

[Ian Thumwood]

"the most avant-garde thing that a jazz musician could do today is try to straight up and down swing" -

An interesting quotation from tenor saxophonist J D Allen which caught my attention amongst the publicity puff associated with his latest release. Allen is a player I have been very impressed with although I have heard him on a recent Jeremey Pelt disc which shocked me a sounding like a clone of the second Miles quintet and every bit as "New Neo" as anything produced by Wynton despite the lack of brickbats. His trio has made a number of impressive records and has quite a body of work under it's belt. He is not a player I would under-estimate but perhaps this sound bite is a reflection on the state of a lot of contemporary jazz at the moment where technical prowess is all and ferocious improvisers as diverse as Benny Goodman, Lionel Hampton, Johnny Griffin, Cannonball Adderley, deeply unfashionable.

Is J D Allen right? Is swing still relevant?

[Serial_Apologist]

"the most avant-garde thing that a jazz musician could do today is try to straight up and down swing" -

An interesting quotation from tenor saxophonist J D Allen which caught my attention amongst the publicity puff associated with his latest release. Allen is a player I have been very impressed with although I have heard him on a recent Jeremey Pelt disc which shocked me a sounding like a clone of the second Miles quintet and every bit as "New Neo" as anything produced by Wynton despite the lack of brickbats. His trio has made a number of impressive records and has quite a body of work under it's belt. He is not a player I would under-estimate but perhaps this sound bite is a reflection on the state of a lot of contemporary jazz at the moment where technical prowess is all and ferocious improvisers as diverse as Benny Goodman, Lionel Hampton, Johnny Griffin, Cannonball Adderley, deeply unfashionable.

Is J D Allen right? Is swing still relevant?

"Straight up and down swing" eh? As Professor Joad would have said: it depends what you mean by...

For me swing denotes those tiny note displacements or deflections from the beat that are sometimes claimed to distinguish jazz from other types of music. British jazz musicians were once accused of not swinging because of the way they reportedly played on the beat, as if performing a military march. The old defintion of "hot" players placing their notes a fraction before the beat and "cool" players after may seem true when we listen to the way Billie Holiday delays, until we notice Sonny Rollins doing both in his "hottest" performances. Monk (and Stan Tracey) would often play bang on the beat, then prod the spaces between, and I sometimes wonder if there is an element of self-mockery (or mockery of the Basie on-off style) going on here which is at the same time intended to set off the more relaxed relationship to the beat one calls loose playing in order to frame it more effectively. Interestingly it has been remarked (in some American study back in the 1980s iirc) that classical virtuoso pianists themselves actually deflect from the beat, either pre-empting or delaying from it.

If one distinguishes "swing" from syncopation, which is about superimposed accents against metric or rhythmic patterns, and can still be "on" the beat, one can argue that for instance Latin music, or Balinese Gamelan music for that matter, both of which make use of (to us) complex and sometimes asymmetric rhythmic schemes, do not "swing". I suppose if one tried to make them swing by cultivating a loose relationship to their inner beat structures, it would nullify the pre-calculated effectiveness of any syncopations.

For me jazz really starts getting interesting when the drummer disguises downbeats, forcing the soloist to not be dependent on them. Evan Parker's trio playing with Barry Guy and the drummer/percussionist Paul Lytton exemplifies this afaic. One can start to feel an underlying pulse without it having to be made explicit - the banished backbeat finally made a reality! - even in a lot of free improv with jazz roots emphasised in retaining someone on traps. It's amazing how deep attention within such unpredictable music can enable the brain to take in and follow as legitimate degrees of rhythmic (and associative harmonic) complexity that a score would be unable to give any indications of, and the inner sense of fulfilment that derives therefrom. I have even forgotten where I was on occasion!

[Ian Thumwood]

S.A

I am largely in agreement with Allen's comments but would qualify it by saying that there is a whole plethora of possibilities when it comes to swinging. One of the most swinging jazz musicians in my opinion was Paul Motian and his approach is probably the antithesis of what many people (especially from an earlier generation) might have considered to swing. It is a really interesting debate but one which I strongly believe has left the Improv scene argument you present as something that has been passed by with the passage of time. A lot of contemporary jazz still swings and often in the more oblique manner to which you apply. However, there is a real reluctance , especially in much European jazz, for the music to total "burn."

If you consider jazz to be principally a live music, it isn't a too great a step to appreciate why a hard swinging approach can be such a strong component. From personal experience, the hardest swinging player I believe I have heard is Kenny Garrett - a musician whose studio recordings rarely match the total excitement of his live performances. For me, he remains one the greatest live jazz performers of our era and someone who can generate a maelstrom that leaves a lot of his contemporaries in his wake. Increasingly it is the avant garde musicians who have taken up the mantel whereas this approach seems to be missing from many younger contemporary players where the Classical influence seems as important as the Afro-American one. You would probably have to include someone like Joe McPhee or Ken Vandermark if you wanted a contemporary comparison with the likes of Illinois Jacquet. This is why I was really pleased to hear the Jason Roebke record last year which took it's cues from Ellington and Mingus and still remain both within the tradition and at the cutting edge.

As far as the comment about mocking Basie's style, I would have to strongly disagree with you as I am of the opinion that Basie was instrumental in making jazz "modern" and , from a rhythmic perspective, his contribution in the 1930's was as important as Charlie Parker. There are rhythm sections before Basie and those which came after. Anything pre-Basie is effectively "Vintage" whereas his influence continued right up through in to the 1950's. For me, the Moten recordings of 1932 and Basie's Decca recordings from later in the decade are a definite line in the sand and probably the most perfectly functioning rhythm section in jazz until Miles's quintet with Paul Chambers and Philly Joe.

However, the crux of the quote referred to a hard-driving track on the album which contrasted with a lot of the more "polite" styles of jazz that are now more popular and as typified by labels such as ECM. I can appreciate the more ethereal types of swing made popular by this label yet am pleased that the likes of Allen are willing to play in a style where swing remains in the traditional sense without being treated as some kind of museum piece.

[Ian Thumwood]

I think this swings but the sense of timing is exceptional......