Better never than late...

**ahinton** · 13-02-16, 17:33

Great thread title, S_A!

It reminds me in an oblique kind of way of one that I coined years ago in a certain situation with the wearisome details of which it is unnecessary to bore you (or indeed anyone else), namely "doesn't enjoyment fly when you're timing yourself?!"...

**Ian Thumwood** · 14-02-16, 22:50

The Hungarian jazz on JLU sounded surprisingly interesting. I am a bit surprised that no one has commented on the snippets played , at least from the perspective that it would have been nice to have heard more of these bands. By contrast, the Corrie Dick track was indicative to me of how bland a lot of contemporary jazz is and just how close it is to being pop music. Strange that no one seems to mention phrases like "Smooth Jazz" or "fusion" with these kinds of groups whereas this is exactly what it would have been classed as back in the 80's / 90's. By contrast, the Hungarian stuff seemed to have a far better understanding and awareness of jazz , whether from the tasty "Modern art Orchestra" track or the free jazz group selected at the end. All the tracks were intriguing but the bookending number were both my cup of tea. Nice to see that the Budapest scene is more orthodox and not so given to fashion. I had initially thought that this feature might have revealed a similar malaise to what is increasingly being encountered in Vienne (Note Noel Gallacher is now booked for Montreal jazz festival - probably the most insulting / embarrassing bookings ever to a jazz festival) but the tracks selected were far more interesting that anything else played. I was pretty impressed and a little bit taken aback that SA for one hasn't commented favourably. Plenty of future opportunities for these bands in the programme that will eventually arrive on Monday nights ? I would like to hear the big band again at the very least but further appearances by the other bands featured would also be welcome.

**Serial_Apologist** · 15-02-16, 00:17

I have to say I agree entirely about the Hungarian tracks played - great stuff. George Haslam the Oxford baritone sax and tarogato player made lots of connections with the Hungarian scene back in the 1980s, one of whose players was the pianist Laszlo Gardonyi, who was in George's Anglo-Magyar Quintet; I think George might have been responsible for linking him up with Tommy Smith for a time, around '88.

As to the Corrie Dick track, I have to say George Crowley is turning out to be a very fine and committed tenor player, as might have been apparent from the snippett of a solo he did on the track illustrated, which was otherwise pretty dire. From the point of view that that kind of Vaughan Williamsy harmony was fine in Pink Floyd back in the 1970s - those chords fit under guitarists' fingers - it's too stodgy for jazz and similar with the unextended triads of Swing pianists (however good in other contexts) behind early Charlie Parker recordings, allows no air for a soloist to make an impression, as I think was understood in the 1970s and probably the reason no one resorted to them back then. EST has a lot to answer for - or rather people who slavishly follow them as if they were the last word in wisdom.

I'm reminded of another discipline where the same sort of thing applies, economics. No one seems prepared to go back and learn the lessons of the 1930s.

**Ian Thumwood** · 15-02-16, 20:12

SA

The whole idea of soloing of triads must have been pretty obsolete even by the end of the 1920's. I haven't looked at an transcriptions for ages but I think that jazz piano reached some kind of apogee in the 1930s with Teddy Wilson, Art Tatum and eventually Nat "King " Cole. I have a collection of John Mehegan's books about jazz piano and he was a disciple of Wilson yet the books on harmony all deal with 7ths. Armstrong didn't manage to do too badly with a more orthodox understanding of harmony ! What I think is fascinating is that keyboard players and arrangers plus a few inspired souls like Coleman Hawkins and Red Allen really had a grasp of complex harmonies well before Be-bop. The more I listen to jazz, the more I feel that there was a lot going on before Charlie Parker was alleged to have broken the mould. For me, pianists were really at the forefront of this and, to take things further, have always had the gauntlet thrown down at them to unravel the harmonics and rhythmic complexities as jazz has evolved. Jazz pianists were traditionally the "real" heroes of jazz and this is why it is so disheartening to see bands like EST having such an influence on a younger generation of players. They were always seriously over-hyped but reviews like this are perhaps indicative of the failure of the piano trio in recent times and how the press often seems to make missteps in appreciating way some groups aren't really part of a serious jazz evolution:-

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/gogo-pen...hil-barnes.php

Listening to the late Paul Bley recently as well as playing the sadly under-appreciated Hampton Hawes in my car last week really drums it home as to just how good some jazz trios were. I think that the oeuvre is still producing good music yet there is a pre-occupation at looking towards other oeuvres for inspiration as opposed to using the piano as a vehicle to problem solve the evolution of improvisation.

Better never than late...

Announcement

Better never than late...

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment