Is it goodbye or bye-bye Jez?

**Quarky** · 13-03-16, 12:15

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

[B]
12 Midnight - Geoffrey Smith's Jazz
Featuring a showcase of Montreal-born pianist Oscar Peterson (1925-2007), who was popular enough to fill the Royal Albert Hall and renowned for his impressive technique and the ensemble power of his great trios. Geoffrey Smith explains why Peterson has developed a reputation as a "jazz superstar".

Anyone else in two minds about Oscar???

Yes, well three minds actually.

Granted the fabulous technique and terrific swing, I find there is not enough imagination in his improvisation, and I usually end up feeling frustrated.

But taking his music for what it is, without attempting to impose my views of what it ought to be, is this Jazz man Oscar doing his level best, and addressing the Jazz Muse and the Jazz faithful audience, or is this superstar Oscar with one eye on his personal audience, and just emphasising those bits where he knows a reaction will be drawn?

**Ian Thumwood** · 13-03-16, 13:13

I felt very negatively about Peterson until I saw him play live and, even with one hand, he was pretty impressive. (Despite this, his aggression during the gig towards the press photographers jarred.)

I feel that a lot of the negativity directed towards Peterson stemmed from Miles' comment about him having to learn to play the blues. It also didn't help that he was so ubiquitous on the Verve label. I don't think that Bluensik's comment about a year back that this label was the one your friend's father collected is too far off the mark even though it is a generalisation insofar there are some terrific records on Verve. However, Peterson seemed to be the label's "go to" pianist and maybe spread himself around too thinly. I would also add that I don't feel he was ever a be-bopper and more of the ilk of a post-swing player typical of a generation who emerged in the 1940s'.

I agree with SA's comment about the last Jazz on 3 programme. There was a good selection of music and I was fascinated by the Paul Dunmall track. For me, the problem of the programme is the presentation style which suffers from a surfeit of superlatives. Intriguing to hear Jez comment that piano trios have featured more that any other format

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 13-03-16, 16:59

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

I felt very negatively about Peterson until I saw him play live and, even with one hand, he was pretty impressive. (Despite this, his aggression during the gig towards the press photographers jarred.)

I feel that a lot of the negativity directed towards Peterson stemmed from Miles' comment about him having to learn to play the blues. It also didn't help that he was so ubiquitous on the Verve label. I don't think that Bluensik's comment about a year back that this label was the one your friend's father collected is too far off the mark even though it is a generalisation insofar there are some terrific records on Verve. However, Peterson seemed to be the label's "go to" pianist and maybe spread himself around too thinly. I would also add that I don't feel he was ever a be-bopper and more of the ilk of a post-swing player typical of a generation who emerged in the 1940s'.

I agree with SA's comment about the last Jazz on 3 programme. There was a good selection of music and I was fascinated by the Paul Dunmall track. For me, the problem of the programme is the presentation style which suffers from a surfeit of superlatives. Intriguing to hear Jez comment that piano trios have featured more that any other format

The Miles quotes came from a Downbeat blindfold test where he said that OP played like a steamroller and left no space for the music to breath. Not always true obviously, the Verve date with Webster and Hawkins is a delight and I saw him sit in with Ella at Ronnies and play like a dream. But again, I've got a French box set of his trio concerts in 60s Paris and everything, even ballads churns into his pet blues licks.

As to everyone had an Oscar record, when I began to listen to jazz as a yoof, you'ld go round a girlfriend's house and their father or elder brother would have Night Train, Concert by the sea, Atomic Mr Basie and a Brubeck album. Wot,no Cecil Taylor? I'm orff.

BN.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 13-03-16, 17:05

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

I felt very negatively about Peterson until I saw him play live and, even with one hand, he was pretty impressive. (Despite this, his aggression during the gig towards the press photographers jarred.)

I feel that a lot of the negativity directed towards Peterson stemmed from Miles' comment about him having to learn to play the blues. It also didn't help that he was so ubiquitous on the Verve label. I don't think that Bluensik's comment about a year back that this label was the one your friend's father collected is too far off the mark even though it is a generalisation insofar there are some terrific records on Verve. However, Peterson seemed to be the label's "go to" pianist and maybe spread himself around too thinly. I would also add that I don't feel he was ever a be-bopper and more of the ilk of a post-swing player typical of a generation who emerged in the 1940s'.

I agree with SA's comment about the last Jazz on 3 programme. There was a good selection of music and I was fascinated by the Paul Dunmall track. For me, the problem of the programme is the presentation style which suffers from a surfeit of superlatives. Intriguing to hear Jez comment that piano trios have featured more that any other format

The Miles quotes came from a Downbeat blindfold test where he said that OP played like a steamroller and left no space for the music to breath. Not always true obviously, the Verve date with Webster and Hawkins is a delight and I saw him sit in with Ella at Ronnies and play like a dream. But again, I've got a French box set of his trio concerts in 60s Paris and everything, even ballads churns into his pet blues licks.

As to everyone had an Oscar record, when I began to listen to jazz as a yoof, you'ld go round a girlfriend's house and their father or elder brother would have Night Train, Concert by the sea, Atomic Mr Basie and a Brubeck album. Wot,no Barney Wilen? I'm orff to meet Francois H'Arrrrrrrrdy..

BN.

**Ian Thumwood** · 13-03-16, 17:26

Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post

The Miles quotes came from a Downbeat blindfold test where he said that OP played like a steamroller and left no space for the music to breath. Not always true obviously, the Verve date with Webster and Hawkins is a delight and I saw him sit in with Ella at Ronnies and play like a dream. But again, I've got a French box set of his trio concerts in 60s Paris and everything, even ballads churns into his pet blues licks.

As to everyone had an Oscar record, when I began to listen to jazz as a yoof, you'ld go round a girlfriend's house and their father or elder brother would have Night Train, Concert by the sea, Atomic Mr Basie and a Brubeck album. Wot,no Barney Wilen? I'm orff to meet Francois H'Arrrrrrrrdy..

BN.

The problem with Peterson is that he is so busy as an accompanist that his comping has the effect of acting like a bucket of cold water over the proceedings. The Hawkins / Webster disc is a good example. This is a record that was one of my first introductions to jazz and it was the soundtrack when I was doing my O levels back in 1983. I love both Hawkins and Webster but this was a record that took a while to get in to. it is a bit safe even though the chance to head the two tenor men go head to head is fascinating and more of a friendly and respectful encounter than you might have encounter twenty years earlier.

Peterson is actually much better as a solo pianist. I used to have a disc where he played a du with Milt Jackson and his affinity for stride piano and need to earn his corn makes this far more interesting than any of his trios which are technically amazing but a bit safe. Peterson was a failsafe option for Norman Granz who knew he would be reliable and consistent when supporting his other artists such as Armstrong, Webster and Ella. I think Granz managed to produce a product with a distinct "house style" and the couple of books I have read about him recently make his affinity for a "safe" musician like Peterson makes perfect sense. Granz was never an advocate for anything too outside and whilst he flirted with more contemporary sounds, they were more likely not to be contemporary jazz ones !

Jazz piano in the 1950's is a bit problematic. I feel that jazz pianists seemed to take a long time to digest Bud Powell's innovations as it opened up so many doors that it took a while for pianists to come up with something more adventurous. Too often , the alternatives looked towards Classical music for inspiration with players like Brubeck, John Lewis and Peterson. You can imagine the nods of approval by classically originated fans at that time upon hearing these musicians and how someone like Bill Evans must have been the answer to their prayers. Peterson really fits in nicely to this category and his technical prowess must have had fellow classical pianists purring with approval. That said, I think that other pianists from this era seem to get more credit , whether it is Lennie Tristano, the "in vogue" Herbie Nichols or Thelonious Monk. I wouldn't swap anything by Wynton Kelly for a record by OP and maybe Kelly was the most accomplished of all band pianists until Herbie Hancock transformed the role and Cecil Taylor threw the rule book out of the window.

**Jazzrook** · 13-03-16, 17:32

Who was it who once said "if you want to know the time, Oscar Peterson"?

JR

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 13-03-16, 17:46

Originally posted by Jazzrook View Post

Who was it who once said "if you want to know the time, Oscar Peterson"?

JR

But would he have remembered April or would he just Ham and Hawes? The relationship of OP to Le Hamp Hawes is an interesting one...

BN.

**Ian Thumwood** · 13-03-16, 17:54

I can't see any musical relationship. Hawes comes straight out of Bud Powell but his approach to rhythm is far more stretched. "The Green Leaves of Summer" is a nod in the direction towards Keith Jarrett's trio and it is a shame that Hawes' trio had not been more prolific in the studio. OP 's style comes from an earlier tradition and his approach to rhythm more readily reflects the era when rhythm sections traditionally included a guitar. It is almost stretching things too far to consider OP to be a modern jazz pianist but I would be fascinated to learn just how much an influence OP might have been on a young McCoy Tyner who shares Peterson's more florid approach to the improvised line.

**Alyn_Shipton** · 13-03-16, 18:00

Ian I think you need to listen to more OP before making such pronouncements. Might be an idea to re-listen to my interview with him on Jazz Library where he discussed his approach to accompanying. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b008w1jj
Not many accompanists, it seems to me, would remember the different chords that particular JATP soloists used on the same tune, nor would they be aware of the different accompanimental styles that were required by each one. I heard OP playing solo and in groups live in concert frequently from the early 70s to the early 2000s, and he might have had licks he liked or fell back on, but every single one of those concerts had a moment or two of miraculous invention. And he was not always florid...

**Quarky** · 13-03-16, 21:32

Originally posted by Alyn_Shipton View Post

Ian I think you need to listen to more OP before making such pronouncements. Might be an idea to re-listen to my interview with him on Jazz Library where he discussed his approach to accompanying. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b008w1jj
...

Thanks for that Jazz Library link Alyn. Was I listening to the same pianist that I heard on Geoffrey's programme?

**Ian Thumwood** · 14-03-16, 20:38

Oddball

The podcast was really interesting. I think the reference to Peterson's "feather bed" approach to accompanying is spot on. I much preferred the earlier records that were selected and was a bit surprised that OP sounded like he had been listening to Bud Powell on the "Fine and dandy" track.

I never cared for Peterson until I heard him in concert and that made me more sympathetic although he didn't make the same impression as the more economic Hank Jones. Judging from the selections, you get the impression that OP gradually grew more conservative as he got older but there are really unusual records like "Nigerian Market Place" which I had forgotten about until I heard "Cakewalk." This was quite contemporary when it came out and I can remember being surprised by it's modernity when a friend loaned it to me. It is more intriguing than most of his work as the material includes originals and goes back to cover material like Parker's "Au Privave."

**Quarky** · 15-03-16, 04:49

Lots of interesting comments, which has made me listen more carefully to OP.

I guess the thing about Oscar, like other jazz greats such as Sonny Rollins, was an inexhaustible well of improvisation, he could probably improvise all night without repeating himself ( C Jam blues). So I can quite understand that as an accompanist, he might have had to apply a mental set of handcuffs and rethink matters.

But typing in Oscar Peterson in YouTube search, there is just a ton of popular albums, with toned down 3 minute tracks....Easter Parade, Heart belongs to Daddy. It's very easy to form a negative impression.

Is it goodbye or bye-bye Jez?

Is it goodbye or bye-bye Jez?

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