The Prince and the Composer (Parry)

[salymap]

And dear smittims, [remember him] had some rather hairy rows with DON but unfortunately can't remember the details.

[Pabmusic]

...we were taught that there was a dual-headed composer/educator called Parry-'n'-Stanford and that their music was not much good

I can clearly recall many examples of this negative and destructive attitude from people who 'knew' (I'm talking of the 1960s here). It wasn't just Parry 'n' Stanford, but Elgar, and many contemporary composers such as Edmund Rubbra. Of course, this was the time when William Glock was the BBC's music controller and had great influence over what was broadcast or included in the Proms, but his was only typical of an attitude that dismissed such composers as meaningless for contemporary audiences. What was worse was that the criticisms were often barbed and deeply personal. I don't think there's as much of it around now. It seems quite alright to like whatever music you like; this may provoke arguments about quality, influence and importance, but I'm not conscious of the nastier side. Some of this change is down to the greater availability of music. When CDs became established, some companies actively sought out unknown music, and stations such as Classic Fm played them without preconceptions. That's surely good - we may now have much more music available (and some of it may indeed be very ordinary) but there's a much more open attitude in general, receptive to new music.

As for Stanford, I think he's a little more in the tradition of Schumann and Brahms than Parry is. If you are prepared to listen to (say) Raff, Draeseke, Gade, Svendsen or early Dvorak, then I guess you'd warm to Stanford.

[salymap]

Years ago when I worked in an orchestral hire library Stanford's choral works were very popular. The 'Songs of the Fleet' and 'Songs of theSea' could perhaps do with a Proms performance again. 'The Revenge' and other choral works were staple fare of the choral socideties of the day. Pre Glock of course.

[BBMmk2]

Ah,Chandos, Salymap, did you know they have recorded Songs of the Fleet?

[Roehre]

As for Stanford, I think he's a little more in the tradition of Schumann and Brahms than Parry is. If you are prepared to listen to (say) Raff, Draeseke, Gade, Svendsen or early Dvorak, then I guess you'd warm to Stanford.

Welcome to these boards from me as well, pabmusic

IMO Raff, who was according to the first edition of the Grove the
eminent symphonic composer of his day (with Brahms for the chamber music and Wagner at the operatic scene), is the first influence one notices while listening to both the first symphonies of Stanford (the earworm rhythmic figure of finale 1 an example), although symphony 2 owes quite a lot to Beethoven too.

But I concur with your suggestion of listening to Raff and Svendsen (early Dvorak is similar, but Stanford cannot have known Dvorak's 1-5 [present numbering]) gives a sense of Stanford's place. And let us not forget: Stanford's 4 was premiered in Berlin in 1887 IIRC, whereas his 3rd "Irish" was programmed at the very first regular concert of the Concertgebouw Orchestra in November 1888.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

(early Dvorak is similar, but Stanford cannot have known Dvorak's 1-5 [present numbering])

Wasn't the new no. 5 the old no. 3?

[Roehre]

Wasn't the new no. 5 the old no. 3?

Yes, it was.
Here the present as well as the "old" numbering:

In the old numbering there were 5 symphonies numbered 1-5.

The present numbering is 1-9, as follows:

Nr.1 c-minor, "Bells of Zlonice" (sometimes opus 3), Burghauser 9.
Nr.2 B-flat major, opus 4, B.12
Nr.3 E-flat major, opus 10, B.34 (the only 3-movement work)
Nr.4 d-minor, opus 13, B.41
Nr.5 F-major opus 24 & 76, B.54 (one of Dvorak's works with 2 opus numbers, the quintet B.49 opus 18 & 77 being another one, due to Simrock publishing the works as recent ones, though more than a decade old at that time)
Nr.6 D-major opus 60, B.112
Nr.7 d-minor opus 70, B.141
Nr.8 G-major opus 88, B.163
Nr.9 e-minor opus 95, B.178. "From the New World

The present numbers 5-9 were published with a number, present numbers 2-4 without any.

The symphonies were published in their order of opus number, therefore:
nr.6 opus 60 was numbered 1
nr.7 opus 70 became nr.2
nr.5 opus 24 became nr.3 opus 76
nr.8 opus 88 nr.4 and finally
nr.9 opus 95 nr.5.

[Pabmusic]

Welcome to these boards from me as well, pabmusic


... Stanford's 4 was premiered in Berlin in 1887 IIRC, whereas his 3rd "Irish" was programmed at the very first regular concert of the Concertgebouw Orchestra in November 1888.

I think (but I can't look this up at the moment) there was an all-Stanford concert given in Berlin by the Philharmonic and von Bulow. (Perhaps that's the 4th Symphony premiere you mention.) Stanford wrote something for violin (not a concerto, I'm sure) which Joachim played at the concert.

The clarinet concerto, a late work, is very enjoyable too, and there's a piano concerto (?the 2nd) that starts in the mood of Rachmaninov's 2nd.

[BBMmk2]

........and I second that motion aka calum!!

[EdgeleyRob]

Stanford wrote something for violin (not a concerto, I'm sure) which Joachim played at the concert.

The clarinet concerto, a late work, is very enjoyable too, and there's a piano concerto (?the 2nd) that starts in the mood of Rachmaninov's 2nd.

Maybe the suite for violin and orchestra ? I can recommend this CD.

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67208

[Roehre]

Maybe the suite for violin and orchestra ? I can recommend this CD.

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67208

Seconded.
Both piano concertos and the clarinet concerto are well written pieces too, the latter being my favourite clarinet concerto, especially the 2nd mvt. It is another connection between Brahms and Stanford: Brahms couldn't resist writing pieces for clarinet (Opp.114/115/120) after he heard Mühlfeld playing. Stanford wrote his concerto with that clarinettist in mind. A pity Mühlfeld didn't reciproke the gesture: he never played it.

[Pabmusic]

Spot on, EdgeleyRob. Thanks.

[salymap]

For those who missed it, this film is on BBC4 tonight at 9pm. I would like to have videod it but my Freeview box is out of action at the moment. It will be on iPlayer for another week though.

[Norfolk Born]

Salymap - has your full-page magnifier arrived, and if so have you used it and if so what do you think of it?

[salymap]

Hello Ofcachap, to be honest I get on better with a round glass with light. I hoped the fullpage magnifier
would be clear, it is very textured plastic and reflects the light from the windows. however i will persevere with it.