Pedants' Paradise

[Serial_Apologist]

Wordsworth - "untrodden ways" . They wouldn't have been ways had they not been trodden...

.

Or Blake's chartered streets, for that matter - unchartered would have meant under common ownership for him, I think. The idea of unbound(arie)d being synonymous with freedom and therefore some kind of right is one where one has to tread cautiously and select between metaphorical chaff and the wheat of life (= the unavoidable "stuff" of reality).

[LMcD]

Surely, it doesn't mean 'no maps, ships lying idle'. It doesn't mean anything. You can't charter waters.

Ships lying idle because nobody has chartered them?

[french frank]

Ships lying idle because nobody has chartered them?

That's unchartered ships, not unchartered waters

[AuntDaisy]

That's unchartered ships, not unchartered waters

The Runnymede water meadow before Magna was Carta-ed? Could that be unchartered waters? Esp. if flooded.

[Old Grumpy]

The Runnymede water meadow before Magna was Carta-ed? Could that be unchartered waters? Esp. if flooded.

That's pretty tenuous...


...and I thought you liked dry humour!

[french frank]

The Runnymede water meadow before Magna was Carta-ed? Could that be unchartered waters? Esp. if flooded.

No. I don't believe Runnymede (or Magna) became chartered or Carta'd just because K. John (who was not a good man, And had his little ways, And sometimes no one spoke to him For days and days and days) signed Magna Carta there.

[AuntDaisy]

That's pretty tenuous...
...and I thought you liked dry humour!

It's the weather - the damp has got to me.

[AuntDaisy]

No. I don't believe Runnymede (or Magna) became chartered or Carta'd just because K. John (who was not a good man, And had his little ways, And sometimes no one spoke to him For days and days and days) signed Magna Carta there.

Typical, historical academics always wanting accuracy. Sealed?

Sadly, I missed out on Now we are Six when young, at first I thought it was 1066 and All That.

[Serial_Apologist]

Prince Andrew's Close came up this morning In a TV discussion on councils dropping apostrophes from street and place names!

[vinteuil]

... at first I thought it was 1066 and All That.

CHAPTER 18

John: An Awful King

WHEN John came to the throne he lost his temper and flung himself on the floor, foaming at the mouth and biting the rushes. He was thus a Bad King. Indeed, he had begun badly as a Bad Prince, having attempted to answer the Irish Question(*) by pulling the beards of the aged Irish chiefs, which was a Bad Thing and the wrong answer.

Prince Arthur A Tragedy in Little

John had a little nephew called Little Arthur, who was writing a little History of England in quite a small dungeon, and whose little blue eyes John had ordered to be put out with some weeny red-hot irons. The gaoler Hubert, however, who was a Good Man, wept so much that he put out the red-hot irons instead. John was therefore compelled to do the little deed himself with a large, smallish knife, thus becoming the first memorable wicked uncle.

(*)N.B. The Irish Question at this time consisted of: (1) Some Norman Barons, who lived in a Pail (near Dublin), (2) The natives and Irish Chieftains, who were beyond the Pail, living in bogs, beards, etc.

The Bull

John was so bad that the Pope decided to put the whole country under an Interdict, i.e. he gave orders that no one was to be born or die or marry (except in Church porches). But John was still not cured of his Badness; so the Pope sent a Bull to England to excommunicate John himself. In spite of the King's efforts to prevent it the Bull succeeded in landing and gave orders that John himself was not to be born or marry or die (except in Church porches); that no one was to obey him or stand him a drink or tell him the right time or the answer to the Irish Question or anything nice. So at last John gave way and he and his subjects began once more to be born and to marry and to die, etc. etc.
CHAPTER 19

Magna Charter

THERE also happened in this reign the memorable Charta, known as Magna Charter on account of the Latin Magna (great) and Charter (a Charter); this was the first of the famous Chartas and Gartas of the Realm and was invented by the Barons on a desert island in the Thames called Ganymede. By congregating there, armed to the teeth, the Barons compelled John to sign the Magna Charter, which said:

1. That no one was to be put to death, save for some reason (except the Common People).
2. That everyone should be free (except the Common People).
3. That everything should be of the same weight and measure throughout the Realm (except the Common People).
4. That the Courts should be stationary, instead of following a very tiresome medieval official known as the King's Person all over the country.
5. That `no person should be fined to his utter ruin' (except the King's Person).
6. That the Barons should not be tried except by a special jury of other Barons who would understand.

Magna Charter was therefore the chief cause of Democracy in England, and thus a Good Thing for everyone (except the Common People).

After this King John hadn't a leg to stand on and was therefore known as `John Lackshanks'.

Final Acts of Misgovernment

John finally demonstrated his utter incompetence by losing the Crown and all his clothes in the wash and then dying of a surfeit of peaches and no cider; thus his awful reign came to an end.

[AuntDaisy]

...
CHAPTER 19
Magna Charter

THERE also happened in this reign the memorable Charta, known as Magna Charter on account of the Latin Magna (great) and Charter (a Charter); this was the first of the famous Chartas and Gartas of the Realm and was invented by the Barons on a desert island in the Thames called Ganymede.
...
Final Acts of Misgovernment
John finally demonstrated his utter incompetence by losing the Crown and all his clothes in the wash and then dying of a surfeit of peaches and no cider; thus his awful reign came to an end.

Thanks vinteuil. A surfeit of peaches, what a way to go - prefereable to lampreys?

All I can add is the odd Folio edition illustration...

[cloughie]

Interesting that John, like Herod never caught on as a name for monarchs!

[AuntDaisy]

Interesting that John, like Herod never caught on as a name for monarchs!

Isn't Boris good enough?

[vinteuil]

Interesting that John, like Herod never caught on as a name for monarchs!

... au contraire - all the Judaean monarchs were called Herod, over five generations : among them

Herod the Great
Herod Archelaus
Herod Antipas
Herod Agrippa
Herod of Chalcis
Herod Agrippa II

Herod the Great was the one when Jesus was born (tho' there was no Massacre of the Innocents - "fake news")
Herod Antipas was the one who executed John the Baptist and refused to judge Jesus

.

[french frank]

Typical, historical academics always wanting accuracy. Sealed?

Though in this case ... OED: To sign: "To put a seal upon (a letter or document) as a means of identification or authentication; to stamp with a seal or signet; to cover with a seal."

Sadly, I missed out on Now we are Six when young, at first I thought it was 1066 and All That.

I mix K John up with the king who wanted butter on his bread but was told to have marmalade instead, but the rhythm is quite different:

"King Kohn was not a good man,
He had his little ways ..."

and

"The king asked the queen and the queen asked the dairymaid
Could we have some butter for the royal slice of bread?
The queen asked the dairymaid, the dairymaid said, "Certainly,
I'll go and tell the cow now before she goes to bed."

Why can I remember this and this morning I couldn't remember someone's name (it began with R) and now I can't remember whose name it was I couldn't remember?