Pedants' Paradise

[kernelbogey]

I taught German and devoted much effort over the years to helping students produce an authentic 'ich' sound and am always happy to go on about this subject. The 'ch' sound after front vowels, e, and i and umlauted back vowels, ä, ö, ü is a very light palatal fricative articulated at the front of the mouth - not ish, ick or itch. It's quite tricky to get right and not overdo, which is perhaps why some presenters don't bother....

My German was learned only orally, from a very early age, visiting my mother's homeland, Suedtirol - part of Austria until 1919, when it became part of Italy. There, 'ch' is pronounced similarly to that in Scottish 'loch' , though I notice as I write and test that, that the position of my tongue is different in each. I have always heard the softer 'ch' in spoken German - something like 'sh' in English fish - as indicative of a speaker from further north (which might mean any region north of Bavaria! ). This is very hard to describe in written prose - but thanks, Gurnemanz, for giving us the benefit of your teaching experience.

My original point, though, was about pronouncing Strauss's first name as though he was British.

[Sir Velo]

Don't get me started on the way they pronounce Llyr Williams!

[Pulcinella]

From John Crace's Guardian column:

Freeman started sobbing. “You just don’t understand,” he croaked, wiping his eyes. “I was at my wit’s end. The thing about being a minister is that it’s so much harder to be on the take. I mean, make. At least being a backbencher, you can crack on with any number of freelance gigs.

Although he might be making a specific point about Freeman's singular wit, should it not be wits' end?

[oddoneout]

From John Crace's Guardian column:



Although he might be making a specific point about Freeman's singular wit, should it not be wits' end?

Difficult to know in this case. John Crace often refers to the single brain cell that is shared around the government benches at PMQs so it might be continuing that theme. Then again it might just be a (rare) mistake.

[LMcD]

Difficult to know in this case. John Crace often refers to the single brain cell that is shared around the government benches at PMQs so it might be continuing that theme. Then again it might just be a (rare) mistake.

Perhaps Mr Freeman meant he was present when his scriptwriter passed on.

[oddoneout]

Perhaps Mr Freeman meant he was present when his scriptwriter passed on.

Oh very good!

[cat]

Is anyone else increasingly seeing e.g. "6 a.m. in the morning", "7 p.m. in the evening". It almost as if the writers are subconsciously assuming that their readers might not know what a.m. and p.m. mean, and so are tacking on an explanation to be on the safe side.

[Old Grumpy]

Er, no...


...but I can imagine it happens!

[french frank]

Is anyone else increasingly seeing e.g. "6 a.m. in the morning", "7 p.m. in the evening". It almost as if the writers are subconsciously assuming that their readers might not know what a.m. and p.m. mean, and so are tacking on an explanation to be on the safe side.

I have heard it. I don't think I've been guilty of that myself, though I have occasionally written a time as e.g. 06.00 am :-( (Damn 24hr clock )

[gurnemanz]

(Damn 24hr clock )

When I lived in Germany I got used to using the 24 hour clock more than we do in the UK. You can use it colloquially, as in "Wir essen um 19 Uhr" - We're eating at 19 o'clock, which of course no one says. I sometimes miss this usage as an option in English.

[Serial_Apologist]

When I lived in Germany I got used to using the 24 hour clock more than we do in the UK. You can use it colloquially, as in "Wir essen um 19 Uhr" - We're eating at 19 o'clock, which of course no one says. I sometimes miss this usage as an option in English.

In English that would sound like we are eating at eighteen hundred hours to allow thirty minutes before the nuclear tests take place. Funny how for us German linguistic precision can take on a humorous aspect in its formality.

[smittims]

Another advantage of logical German procedure is in addresses. We say ' 16 Goethe street ', they say 'Goethe-Strasse 16' because you'd look for the street first, then the number of the building.

[Serial_Apologist]

Another advantage of logical German procedure is in addresses. We say ' 16 Goethe street ', they say 'Goethe-Strasse 16' because you'd look for the street first, then the number of the building.

And yet German, like Latin, places the main action descriptor, the verb, right at the end of sentances, thereby leaving us waiting on by what it is that all the givens are enacted! (And if anyone can work that into grammatical English, if that is possible, it would be welcome, I think! )

[french frank]

We're eating at 19 o'clock, which of course no one says. I sometimes miss this usage as an option in English.

Yes, I would actually favour that. So, colloquially, is it not used in Germany?

I wish I could wean myself off lbs & oz to kgs (as the NHS has).

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, I would actually favour that. So, colloquially, is it not used in Germany?

I wish I could wean myself off lbs & oz to kgs (as the NHS has).

Me too! When it came to Fahrenheit/Centigrade I got a bit of graph paper, placed Fahrenheit degrees from minus 40 to plus 110 in ascending order up the left side, and Ceontigrade from minus 40 to plus 50 from left to right along the bottom. I then found two suitable familiar crossing points, 32F and 0C, 50F and 10C, and 68F and 20C just to make sure, and draw a straight diagonal line through all three. The time has come to do similar for lbs and kgs. I would then carry this around in my wallet for quick read-offs.