A (hopeful) beginner's guide to downloading

[kernelbogey]

I've had a look at the iTunes site, after which I began to lose the will to live (despite owning a MacBook ). It seems that downloading is going to be the future route for music distribution, even items longer than four minutes, not to mention movies.

I hope that experienced downloaders might be willing to share some of their wisdom, signpost other threads, make encouraging offstage noises, direct one to good sites etc.

Any offers?

BW, kb

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i find iTunes expensive and prefer Amazon mp3 dlds ... also a fan of eMusic

[Gordon]

I've had a look at the iTunes site, after which I began to lose the will to live (despite owning a MacBook ). It seems that downloading is going to be the future route for music distribution, even items longer than four minutes, not to mention movies.

I'm not surprised!!! iTunes is typically Apple and quirky although there is a kind of logic and consistency to it. I use the old version of iTunes because the new one defeats me. I have an iPod which I must admit is a very good product - I got it because of its large storage, 160 GBytes. BUT if you use a PC you can't see the files or to add them yourself!! You have to open iTunes import the new files and use the sync button. I used to have other MP3 players that were much easier to manage. It pays to shop around because prices vary and iTunes can be expensive.

I hope that experienced downloaders might be willing to share some of their wisdom, signpost other threads, make encouraging offstage noises, direct one to good sites etc.

Any offers?

BW, kb

I'm surprised no one else has responded yet from those very knowledgable folks that reside here. Here's my somewhat limited - and frustrated - experience:

Finding what music you want needs browsing at the vendor sites or by following links from other people. The download feature at these sites varies as does the method of download as well as the audio coding formats which are many. Common lossy compression ones are: MP3, M4A, non-lossy: FLAC, and each is derived from either CD/wav at 44.1/16 or higher eg 96/24.

I have used several sites including Amazon, iTunes, Hyperion, Universal and Pristine and have had broadly good experience although if your download fails for any reason [files corrupted or incomplete] there is no consistent way these sites use to get this fixed. In some cases it seems unfixable - I had a problem with iTunes not long ago which ended up with me getting my money back because the help chat line could not fix the failed deliveries. If your purchases are recorded by the vendors in their "Cloud" then getting at these is not always easy. As for using this cloud system to be able to listen to your purchases on several devices I have never done it but see how it would work

Once the vagaries of the actual download process, including payment, are mastered, and assuming your download speed is good enough to bring down very large files in a reasonable time, [think of downloading the complete Haydn String Quartets in a non-compressed format like FLAC in 96/24!!!] then your next problem is perhaps to transfer the files into your favourite format - eg an iTunes M4A to MP3 say for your player if it doesn't support M4A or FLAC etc. You will of course need a decent DAC and a means of connecting a storage device if you intend to listen on your main HiFi. You may also need to consider backing up your purchases yourself instead of relying on the Cloud facility.

My main concern is the library management of the audio files. Once you have your files, whose names are given by the download vendor and may need editing which needs a tag editor, you have the tedious business of organising them in a system which is not designed to deal with classical music. Some Amazon files are converted with file names that are too long for older hard disc filing systems and so download happliy enough but then you can't do anything with them because the PC can't read the name!!!! I have found a way around this but Amazon will not do anything about it at source.

Everything, even opera arias, are "songs" and can be linked only through the metadata in each file eg the "album" tag. These tags are filled in by the vendor. I have no patience with this and have my own solution to grouping "songs" into symphonies etc. Imagine trying to organise the Ring into a correct, playable sequence of separate "songs". Playlists can be formed that take a number of file names and save them as ordered groups and then these groups will play the selected files from the storage device in the desired order. To set this up means that your DAC/storage device needs a way of visualising these playlists or some other way of selecting what you want to listen to. A lot to be said for burning CD-Rs of the downloads if you are happy with CD format although you then have the tedium of labelling the CD; if not and you want 96/24 playback then you need a DAC. Other people with more patience than me may have cracked this filing system issue.

I know this is a bit rambly but hope it helps and may start others.

PS the other issue is of course that there is usually no liner notes with downloads but some vendors - usually not Amazon and iTunes - ie the record companies themselves do provide them. Pristine is quite good at notes as well as scores in many cases.

[Flosshilde]

It seems that downloading is going to be the future route for music distribution, even items longer than four minutes, not to mention movies.

Is there a time-scale on this? Like within the next twenty years? How soon do I need to make sure that I've got everything I might want before I can't buy CDs any more?

I've had a look at the iTunes site, after which I began to lose the will to live .

Quite.

[Flosshilde]

I'm not surprised!!! iTunes is typically Apple and quirky although there is a kind of logic and consistency to it. I use the old version of iTunes because the new one defeats me. I have an iPod which I must admit is a very good product - I got it because of its large storage, 160 GBytes. BUT if you use a PC you can't see the files or to add them yourself!! You have to open iTunes import the new files and use the sync button. I used to have other MP3 players that were much easier to manage. It pays to shop around because prices vary and iTunes can be expensive.



I'm surprised no one else has responded yet from those very knowledgable folks that reside here. Here's my somewhat limited - and frustrated - experience:

Finding what music you want needs browsing at the vendor sites or by following links from other people. The download feature at these sites varies as does the method of download as well as the audio coding formats which are many. Common lossy compression ones are: MP3, M4A, non-lossy: FLAC, and each is derived from either CD/wav at 44.1/16 or higher eg 94/24.

I have used several sites including Amazon, iTunes, Hyperion, Universal and Pristine have had broadly good experience although if your download fails for any reason [files corrupted or incomplete] there is no consistent way these sites use to get this fixed. In some cases it seems unfixable - I had a problem with iTunes not long ago which ended up with me getting my money back because the help chat line could not fix the failed deliveries. If your purchases are recorded by the vendors in their "Cloud" then getting at these is not always easy. As for using this cloud system to be able to listen to your purchases on several devices I have never done it but see how it would work

Once the vagaries of the actual download process, including payment, are mastered, and assuming your download speed is good enough to bring down very large files in a reasonable time, [think of downloading the complete Haydn String Quartets in a non-compressed format like FLAC in 96/24!!!] then your next problem is perhaps to transfer the files into your favourite format - eg an iTunes M4A to MP3 say for your player if it doesn't support M4A or FLAC etc. You will of course need a decent DAC and a means of connecting a storage device if you intend to listen on your main HiFi. You may also need to donsider backing up your purchases yourself instead of relying on the Cloud facility.

My main concern is the library management of the audio files. Once you have your files, whose names are given by the download vendor and may need editing which needs a tag editor, you have the tedious business of organising them in a system which is not designed to deal with classical music. Some Amazon files are converted with file names that are too long for older hard disc filing systems and so download happliy enough but then you can't do anything with them because the PC can't read the name!!!! I have found a way around this but Amazon will not do anything about it at source.

Everything, even opera arias, are "songs" and can be linked only through the metadata in each file eg the "album" tag. These tags are filled in by the vendor. I have no patience with this and have my own solution to grouping "songs" into symphonies etc. Imagine trying to organise the Ring into a correct, playable sequence of separate "songs". Playlists can be formed that take a number of file names and save them as ordered groups and then these groups will play the selected files from the storage device in the desired order. To set this up means that your DAC/storage device needs a way of visualising these playlists or some other way of selecting what you want to listen to. A lot to be said for burning CD-Rs of the downloads if you are happy with CD format although you then have the tedium of labelling the CD; if not and you want 96/24 playback then you need a DAC. Other people with more patience than me may have cracked this filing system issue.

I know this is a bit rambly but hope it helps and may start others.

after which I began to lose the will to live

I see what you mean.

[Gordon]

Is there a time-scale on this? Like within the next twenty years? How soon do I need to make sure that I've got everything I might want before I can't buy CDs any more?

Depends where you live or may live over those 20 years. Universal consumption of all kinds of media in very high quality [the movie industry is now looking at sourcing 8k images - HDTV is about 1k] will require quantum leaps in broadband speeds. The equipment for dealing with storage and playback isn't so much the problem. Government studies suggest that broadcasting as we know it will be gone by about 2030 and will be replaced by universal high speed broadband, even mobile, which means I shall not have to worry about it!! Meanwhile if you live in an urban area and are on cable with Virgin say then download speeds may already be very high. My daughter in London gets 50+ MBit/s regularly which is about 10 times the national norm. Meanwhile some companies will want to continue selling packaged media like Blu-Ray discs. Considering that neither SACD or Blu-Ray itself [so far] have been massive successes as audio carriers the likelihood of this is moot. The dominanace of the pop music industry suggests that the disc-like carrier will not thrive as CD did and download will be the norm.

[Don Petter]

My main concern is the library management of the audio files. Once you have your files, whose names are given by the download vendor and may need editing which needs a tag editor, you have the tedious business of organising them in a system which is not designed to deal with classical music.
..

Everything, even opera arias, are "songs" and can be linked only through the metadata in each file eg the "album" tag.

It depends very much what your download source is. If you download from Pristine, for example, you will be given a separate 'cue' file which enables you to produce a CDR with the appropriate tracks from the accompanying single downloaded data file, using standard burning software. (A printable front and rear insert is availabe free to complete the product.)


If you download from Amazon, you will get your individual tracks with no separate annotation, so it's up to you to store them somewhere with a name meaningful to you in whatever system you decide to use. However, the separate files are labelled quite logically and helpfully, in my experience, so they are ready to be easily added to a named playlist for that work or burned to a CDR using EAC or other software. Here are the file names for a Hindemith Mathis Symphony which I recently downloaded:

01 - Symphony _Mathis der Maler__ I_ Engelkonzert.mp3
02 - Symphony _Mathis der Maler__ II_ Grablegung.mp3
03 - Symphony _Mathis der Maler__ III_ Versuchung des heiligen Antonius.mp3

It is then up to you to produce any printed track insert and cover art if you want a conventional physical CDR. (Which is why such downloads should be much cheaper than the bought CD. The seemingly universal lack of any notes and/or libretti reinforce this.)

You can, if you want, just rename these files to something more meaningful to you, only worrying about editing the content of tags if you are going to store them in a system where the tags are to be used. As far as I'm concerned, the simplest way is to put them in a folder called 'Downloads/Classical/Hindemith - Mathis - Kegel' and get on with other things.

[Flosshilde]

It all sounds just like the introduction of self-service checkouts in supermarkets; businesses are forcing us to do more of the work ourselves, so they can cut costs - employ fewer staff, manufacture fewer items, etc - & thereby boost their profits. I wonder when restaurants will start handing us raw ingredients when we order a meal & expect us to cook it ourselves?

[johnb]

I know this is a case of chicken and egg but before anyone decides to go for downloading they should decide how they are going to play the damned things.

There are various options such as:

- listening on your computer, using iTunes, FooBar, JRiver, etc (though computer sound cards aren't exactly noted for audio quality)
- using an iPod or similar device
- burning the files to a CD
- trailing wires from your PC to your audio and using either the digital out or analogue out on your PC via using iTunes, FooBar, JRiver, etc. Once again the quality is determined by your sound card and Windows Mixer.
- using some kind of streaming device (I use Squeezebox Touch). Depending on the system you use this can totally bypass the PC soundcard and Windows Mixer.
- copying the files to a specialist media server connected to your audio system. These vary greatly in price ("hi end" devices which can be £1k and up).

Then there is tagging, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread. The tagging regime that you use will be the means by which you find the music and is vital. The regime you use will be partly dependant on the system you use to play the files and partly on your own preference - but it really is worth giving this some thought. I have my own system (which, as it turns out, it similar to that recommended in a Squeezebox Wiki for classical music) and always edit the tags on any download using "mp3tag" (which is the standard software recommendation for editing tags).

One of the vital things to know is how the system you use orders the tracks - this is usually by the "track" tag.

As an example (not a suggestion), my own tagging system (for use with Squeezebox devices) is:

album: <composer> - <work> - <main performer> e.g. Shostakovich - Symphony No 8 - Haitink
(I use the "album" tag for a specific work, not for the CD as a whole - except when the CD is a compilation of short pieces.)

title: <name of movement> (this is the name you give to the track)

track: the track number within the album

artist: performers (some people include the composer here)

(I also use the "composer" and "albumartist" tags.)

[Frances_iom]

... businesses are forcing us to do more of the work ourselves, so they can cut costs ..

I think you have missed the key point - Richard Stallman had it corect over 20 years ago when he argued that we would have to pay every time we read anything - that is the key behind downloads, very easy to add DRM (and in case of Amazon even take back ebooks you have bought) - in reality all you are actually buying in download is a licence to replay the music in a specific way - admittedly Apple have found it convenient to remove the DRM that enforces this but instead forces you to buy via the iTunes store thus taking their cut from the licence price but note that DRM is probably about to be built into all new web browsers under an extension to HTML5.
The owners of the now obscenely extended copyrights have lobbied hard to have the enforcement of what was civil infringement made into a criminal offence and thus the public pay for any prosecution (our boy David is a key supporter of this and has added along with other free speech restrictions such necessary measures to the supposedly antiPorn filters that ISPs must provide - just go read the small print thereof and it includes much much more than antiPorn) - so much so that the City of London police used to take down websites until one small ISP went to court, merely on the say so of Hollywood) - welcome to the US of England in bed both with NSA and Hollywood

[Don Petter]

I know this is a case of chicken and egg but before anyone decides to go for downloading they should decide how they are going to play the damned things.

There are various options such as:

- listening on your computer, using iTunes, FooBar, JRiver, etc (though computer sound cards aren't exactly noted for audio quality)
- using an iPod or similar device
- burning the files to a CD
- trailing wires from your PC to your audio and using either the digital out or analogue out on your PC via using iTunes, FooBar, JRiver, etc. Once again the quality is determined by your sound card and Windows Mixer.
- using some kind of streaming device (I use Squeezebox Touch). Depending on the system you use this can totally bypass the PC soundcard and Windows Mixer.
- copying the files to a specialist media server connected to your audio system. These vary greatly in price ("hi end" devices which can be £1k and up).

Then there is tagging, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread. The tagging regime that you use will be the means by which you find the music and is vital. The regime you use will be partly dependant on the system you use to play the files and partly on your own preference - but it really is worth giving this some thought. I have my own system (which, as it turns out, it similar to that recommended in a Squeezebox Wiki for classical music) and always edit the tags on any download using "mp3tag" (which is the standard software recommendation for editing tags).

One of the vital things to know is how the system you use orders the tracks - this is usually by the "track" tag.

As an example (not a suggestion), my own tagging system (for use with Squeezebox devices) is:

album: <composer> - <work> - <main performer> e.g. Shostakovich - Symphony No 8 - Haitink
(I use the "album" tag for a specific work, not for the CD as a whole - except when the CD is a compilation of short pieces.)

title: <name of movement> (this is the name you give to the track)

track: the track number within the album

artist: performers

(I also use the "composer" and "albumartist" tags.)

I think the talk of tagging is very important if you need to use it, but it is the sort of thing which may wrongly put people off downloading in any form. As you rightly say, the first consideration should be how you are going to use (and hence store) the downloads.

Two of the ways you list, listening on your computer and burning to a CD, do not require the use of tagging at all, allowing a much simpler approach.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It seems that downloading is going to be the future route for music distribution, even items longer than four minutes, not to mention movies.

That, of course, is what some companies want us to believe, and that it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It could well be self-defeating. Some people may not bother to buy a new release, in the knowledge that it will be available online ad infinitum. With a physical digital format, there is always the consideration of the likelihood of deletion.

I like to collect Vienna Philharmonic recordings. Collecting downloads is not the same. I also like to buy my favourite films on Blu-ray, but Frau A dissuades me, saying we could watch them on Netflix, for which we pay a mere pittance.

[Don Petter]

It all sounds just like the introduction of self-service checkouts in supermarkets; businesses are forcing us to do more of the work ourselves, so they can cut costs - employ fewer staff, manufacture fewer items, etc - & thereby boost their profits. I wonder when restaurants will start handing us raw ingredients when we order a meal & expect us to cook it ourselves?

I think that may be a good parallel.

Certainly even the most 'hold your hand' download sites (eg Pristine, which I mentioned) do not give any packaged process which can compare with the non-interventionist receiving of a ready-made product. (I didn't mention that even with them, you may be dabbling in such things as a 'FLAC front end' as well as your burning software. It all depends on to what extent you are happy with, or prepared to learn, a certain amount of PC file operations.)

[Flosshilde]

I think you have missed the key point - Richard Stallman had it corect over 20 years ago when he argued that we would have to pay every time we read anything - that is the key behind downloads, very easy to add DRM (and in case of Amazon even take back ebooks you have bought) - in reality all you are actually buying in download is a licence to replay the music in a specific way

Yes, an excellent point. We will no longer own things - just be permitted to use them under very restricted conditions. What was that about 'freedom & democracy' & consumer choice?

[Flosshilde]

in the knowledge that it will be available online ad infinitum. With a physical digital format, there is always the consideration of the likelihood of deletion.

But will it? I know that it's said that once something goes on the internet it can't be deleted, but tracking things down that have no visible presence (eg listed by the producer) would require a great deal of time & knowledge, surely.