Can you get to the Proms?

[cavatina]

I find it irksome when those who dare to criticise R3's audio quality are taken to task by Prommers who enjoy subsidised concerts which are intended to be broadcast.

They're intended to be appreciated by concertgoers and radio listeners alike. And this whole spurious "you have no right to comment because you didn't pay the license fee" line of thinking is a complete crock. Cambridge hired US analysts from my old think tank to comment on UK arts policy; obviously not everyone is provincial and bigoted.

I've seriously got half a mind to go cut a check right now, just to shut everyone up about it.

[Al R Gando]

Oh, and I've also been using the I-player in the mornings when I want to hear a particular piece again.

May we enquire - without rancour, if possible? - if the performance of Mendelssohn's "Elijah" has featured amongst those to which you have Listened Again? Did the balance between chorus and orchestra seem to you identical with what you heard in the live performance? Did you find the upper and lower frequencies fully present in the iPlayer rendering, or clipped-off? Was the dynamic range on the iPlayer as variegated from loud to soft as you heard in the Albert Hall?

You see, several professional musicians - including at least one who was performing in the concert in question - have mentioned that what was broadcast was not, perhaps, the Full Shilling.

[cavatina]

Indeed. As in this post from cavatina a few days ago on a thread started by johnn perfectly illustrates:-

You could have also pulled a quote from later in the thread when I apologised for being so dismissive after being shown exactly what they were talking about. Not my finest moment; oh well.

[aeolium]

And this whole spurious "you have no right to comment because you didn't pay the license fee" line of thinking is a complete crock.

Who has made that comment? Anyone has a right to comment whether or not they pay the license fee - quite a few people living here don't as they don't have a TV. My point was that the BBC has an obligation to those to whom it broadcasts the concerts (many of whom are license fee payers) to provide decent audio quality. There is considerable evidence that it has been below par for a number of concerts.

Cambridge hired US analysts from my old think tank to comment on UK arts policy; obviously not everyone is provincial and bigoted.

What on earth has that got to do with a discussion on the BBC's sound quality?

[Al R Gando]

My point was that the BBC has an obligation to those to whom it broadcasts the concerts (many of whom are license fee payers) to provide decent audio quality.

Agreed, and I would go further - the BBC also has obligations to the composers whose works have been played, to broadcast them to a deserving standard; and to the performers in the concerts - to give a fair and full audio (and optimally visual) portrayal of their professional work.

[french frank]

several professional musicians - including at least one who was performing in the concert in question - have mentioned that what was broadcast was not, perhaps, the Full Shilling.

I provided a link to that interesting discussion on the 'Elijah' thread, so I think there is little to disagree about on the point of the sound quality.

I quote from the instrumentalist you mention: "I have heard from colleagues that the balance sounded all wrong over the radio - as if the engineers had basically turned down the orchestra. This does not surprise me. Just about every live BBC broadcast I have ever heard that involves singers makes the singers sound unnaturally loud."

[amateur51]

They're intended to be appreciated by concertgoers and radio listeners alike. And this whole spurious "you have no right to comment because you didn't pay the license fee" line of thinking is a complete crock. Cambridge hired US analysts from my old think tank to comment on UK arts policy; obviously not everyone is provincial and bigoted.

I've seriously got half a mind to go cut a check right now, just to shut everyone up about it.

It's never a good idea to admit in print that you've seriously got half a mind, cavatina

And please stop going on about the old fish tank - it's getting very tedious - you checked the sums? Enough already!

[Nick Armstrong]

There was a feature about the Hollywood prom on BBCTV Breakfast this morning - in the video clip that was played, one of the solo singers at the front appeared to be bellowing into a large microphone in her fist, but was all but inaudible... Be interesting to see if they sort that out by the time of the TX on Saturday...

[Chris Newman]

We live in N Wilts (Wootton Bassett - soon to be ennobled to royal status like the Albert Hall) and have no difficulty attending Proms. We have only been once this year so far (Das klagende Lied with Brahms violin) but the opportunity is always there. Although we could go by train from Swindon, it would be more expensive, slower and less convenient than going by car. It is mostly motorway. Google maps says it is 81.9 miles, taking 1.33 hrs and costing £15.72. Getting there takes longer than that due to traffic and you have to build in slack but afterwards the roads are fairly empty and you can easily be back by midnight. It is not difficult to park free in Queen's Gate. Total cost for two + Prom tickets = £25.72.

My journey to London is 10 miles further, but I do nor have a car. Buying and owning one would bump up my annual expenses considerably and in Salisbury residents' parking is not cheap. Preferring to be green I hire one for long trips to visit relatives or for the occasional holiday. Not owning a car saves me a couple of thousand pound a year which pays for my Promming and visits abroad.

When I owned a car I only noticed free parking in London at weekends.

Sadly I find it costs about the same to fly to Prague for a fortnight (admittedly in March), stay in an apartment, and sit in comfy stalls seats to listen to a couple of Czech PO concerts and 8 opera performances (at the Estates Theatre, National Theatre and State Opera) as it does to go by train to London stay in University digs for a fortnight (in August) and stand for a dozen concerts at the Proms. The music, food and apartments are far cheaper in the east of Europe. Hardly surprisingly I go there now and again. I still come to the Proms because I like the variety and sound in the Albert Hall.

[BetweenTheStaves]

....
Sadly I find it costs about the same to fly to Prague for a fortnight (admittedly in March), stay in an apartment, and sit in comfy stalls seats to listen to a couple of Czech PO concerts and 8 opera performances (at the Estates Theatre, National Theatre and State Opera) as it does to go by train to London stay in University digs for a fortnight (in August) and stand for a dozen concerts at the Proms. The music, food and apartments are far cheaper in the east of Europe. Hardly surprisingly I go there now and again. I still come to the Proms because I like the variety and sound in the Albert Hall.

That is very true, Chris. What little disposable income we have we prefer to spend going to see an opera in a foreign city rather than London.

[BetweenTheStaves]

Very true, but one man's "decent" is another man's "dire". Do you really think SIS would do a deliberately substandard job when, as a contractor, they risk losing the contract and being replaced? ....

You are making a very important assumption here and that is whether or not anyone who has any say in these matters at BBC R3 actually cares. That is not to decry the many excellent sound engineers at the BBC...more a pointed finger at the bean counters and those who'd have us text in the latest contents of our dustbin.

[Chris Newman]

Yes, opera seats in Prague, Brno or Belgrade are between a quarter and a third of the price of London. Even so I try to get to the ROH or ENO at least once a season but 1 ticket there is three elsewhere.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Do you really think SIS would do a deliberately substandard job when, as a contractor, they risk losing the contract and being replaced? Surely they're trying the best they can with the resources and personnel they have; whether or not that's good enough to be renewed isn't for you or me to say.

But of course it's for the listeners to say whether or not it's good enough. I'm sure SIS would not deliberately do a substandard job, but when a public service hands its jobs out to private contracters, this can be a negative side-effect (sometimes, such as when the railways were privatised and Railtrack neglected the network for several years, the situation only being remedied after some serious train crashes).
Licence payers (and, yes, "licence" spelt with a second "c" when used as a noun) will, and should, speak out when broadcasting is sub-standard.

[Al R Gando]

Yes, opera seats in Prague, Brno or Belgrade are between a quarter and a third of the price of London. Even so I try to get to the ROH or ENO at least once a season but 1 ticket there is three elsewhere.

Hmmm, I saw "Madam Butterfly" in Brno 5-6 years ago, and I would say that at a quarter of the price then it's still overpriced Orchestra played like the band at Billy Smart's Circus, and the tenor would have been pensioned-off by the US Navy at least ten years earlier. Belgrade is also quite rough - most of the decent players have emigrated to earn decent wages. There is one rather elderly baritone there who is The Real McCoy, however - one of the best Renato's in "Masked Ball" I have ever heard (they still do the quaint "English Colonies" version there).

[Chris Newman]

Hmmm, I saw "Madam Butterfly" in Brno 5-6 years ago, and I would say that at a quarter of the price then it's still overpriced Orchestra played like the band at Billy Smart's Circus, and the tenor would have been pensioned-off by the US Navy at least ten years earlier. Belgrade is also quite rough - most of the decent players have emigrated to earn decent wages. There is one rather elderly baritone there who is The Real McCoy, however - one of the best Renato's in "Masked Ball" I have ever heard (they still do the quaint "English Colonies" version there).

Perhaps I was being a bit presumptious to include Brno and Belgrade not having ventured that far east but having them on my wish list and having heard good of them. I shall kick the shins of my obviously deaf friend. I can speak highly of Prague though having recently been there but choose things that are regularly in the repertoire. A once a month Aida is just to keep the chorus and orchestra up to date.