Prom 29: Friday 5th August at 7.30. p.m. (Mahler 2)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And he's certainly no Norrington.

Worth a listen then?

[Panjandrum]

Well, after considering travelling up to London for this (5 hr round trip) I chose to stay home, also for other reasons, and listened in DAB.

I think this is among the greatest of all symphonies, and for me the greatest of the twentieth century.

Sorry to be pedantic but it is actually a 19th century composition (fp 1895). Do you consider it to be the greatest 19th century symphony?

[Bryn]

Worth a listen then?

Both worth a listen. The Norrington presenting Mahler closer to score, the Dudamel having, to my ears, rather better vocal soloists.

[kernelbogey]

Sorry to be pedantic but it is actually a 19th century composition (fp 1895). Do you consider it to be the greatest 19th century symphony?

No, that's not pedantry - thank you - but I'm actually surprised by the date, although in my defence I was posting at an earlyish hour....

And no, I'd put the Eroica top of my 19th century list, I think, along with the Schubert 9. I was trying to think what my alltime list would be - I think M2, S9 & B3 would right now be joint numbers one.

[Norfolk Born]

And he's certainly no Norrington.

Well, that's one good reason for watching on BBC2 tonight!

[RobertLeDiable]

Let's be clear: the SBYO is an amazing phenomenon, as is El Sistema and all the fantastic work it does. Dudamel is a particularly talented product of it, and he certainly has loads of 'charisma', whatever that is. However, it's becoming apparent that between his ability to extract expressive extremes from an orchestra and his interpretative insight there is a large gap. He does what many of the most heavily hyped young conductors of recent years do - he concentrates on the thrill of the moment, the ultra pianissimo, the maximum intensity of string sound, the extremely fast, the incredibly slow - without too much regard for connecting up the exciting moments into a coherent and convincing whole. He's young and he'll (probably) learn, fine, but the agents and PR people who nowadays are always looking for the next Rattle are putting potentially excellent young talents like him into impossibly exposed situations far too early in their careers. I haven't yet heard him conduct a serious piece of music with real sensitivity or understanding of structure.

It beats me that Mahler symphonies of all things are now regarded as just another series of virtuoso showpieces for young conductors to thrill us with.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It amazes me just how popular Mahler is these days. I recall a time in the mid/late 60s when there was only one version of the 6th symphony available on record (Adler on a bargain label, possibly Saga).

[DracoM]

Spot on, Mr Devil.

[RobertLeDiable]

When you read that Dudamel is actually being courted as the next Music Director of La Scala, having conducted only a handful of operas in his life, you realise that there are now too many people in high places in the music business who have lost touch with the art itself.

[pilamenon]

I was glad to be there and will treasure the memory for several reasons - watching youthful, exuberant Venezuelan musicians from humble backgrounds revelling in this majestic pinnacle of European symphonic tradition; hearing the offstage brass and percussion so perfectly realised in the near ideal setting of the Albert Hall, and the ensuing dialogue between heaven and earth that Mahler conceived; Anna Larsson, and the ethereal floated quality into space of her entry in Urlicht; the quite spellbinding entries of the choir, and their sustained beauty and control; and the ecstatic reception both before and after the concert that singled this out as a special occasion not just at the Proms but in the history of orchestral performance in this country.

This was my first live 'Resurrection', and many posters will have valid comparisons by which to judge it. In many respects, I think the overall assessment of the performance here is probably right - it was more about beautiful moments, dynamic expression and wonderful virtuosity, than a sustained, coherent articulation of Mahler's argument at properly judged tempi. But I don't care about that - I think this work is capable of taking a performance that almost ground to a half or stopped dead in its tracks at one or two points. Mahler's great themes and their transformation still emerge clearly. In a way, this symphony goes beyond any of those traditional considerations in its power to move. This was a wonderful evening.

[Tevot]

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with #51. For me the performance improved - or made better sense after the first movement which indeed was slow. And it was interesting to hear in the interviews and the comments of Donald Macleod that Dudamel's present interpretation is part of an evolving process. It'd be interesting to hear Dudamel's thoughts in 10 years time for example. Having heard the rapturous reception - clearly a great many in the RAH were moved and appreciative - and it must have been a great experience "live" Listening on the i-player it came across well and I concur with this review's finding that it was " an extraordinary curate's egg of a Prom." But yet again thanks to the BBC, The Proms and the SBO for letting us enjoy such an event.

The artsdesk review is here:

http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4270:bbc-proms-simón-bolívar-symphony-orchestra-dudamel&Itemid=27

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[gedsmk]

Hi gedsmk - is that a response to my mention of the Maazel performance? If so, amazingly, I'd forgotten Jessye Norman (how could I have...?).

If you did mean that, please say more about the performance and its date, if you can, to refresh my memory - thanks.

What has stuck in my memory about it are two things:

The way Maazel slowed down, in the first movement, the repeated four chords and the following descending tutti scale - just shattering.

And the incredible pppp of the chorus's entry on Wieder auferstehen - truly spine-tingling.

BW, kb

found it. I just have the last 45 minutes on the cassette. It was Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus, Maazel, Margaret Marshall, Jessye Norman. April 1979.
Maazel repeated the earth-shattering rit. in the 1st movement with the Philharmonia this year at RFH.
Thinking back on last night, I thought the quality of sound in the chorus was particularly special - all the quiet stuff sitting and then standing for the glorious end. The Soprano was no match for Anna Larsson: her voice didn't soar nearly enough.
I wonder what the performance would have been like with Abbado conducting (or Maazel, actually!)

It will be a great shame if Dudamel continues on this "flash harry" style and doesn't develop. Perhaps the champagne corks popped 10 years too early.

[prokkyshosty]

I went into this thinking that if I had one concert to attend on my deathbed (it will be a mobile bed), I might well have picked this orchestra, this symphony, and this hall, which lends itself so well to such "occasion" symphonies. So I wasn't likely to be dissappointed now was I? I did enjoy it immensely, despite the tempi that were... well, shocking. I will say this: the slowness and the pianississimos did have the remarkable effect of bringing the unruly RAH audience into abeyance. I've never seen them so well behaved, and the lack of applause after the Totenfeier may well be the biggest surprise of the season thus far! However, listening to the long pauses (even between phrases!) I thought to myself that this can't be going down well on the radio.

Other notes: The queue for the arena started on the steps, went all the way down Prince Consort Road, turned right at Queens Gate and had already reached Kensington Rd an hour before the performance. The gallery queue doubled back on itself on Kensington Gore to and from the RAH. I had an extra ticket so I went to the end of the queue and sold it to a very appreciative fellow who was holding a stub number in the 700s for the Gallery. I can't imagine everyone made it in -- there's no way.

For those willing to go far afield for their Dudamel-led big occasions, tickets go on sale soon for the 4 Feb performance of Mahler's 8th, with the combined Bolivars and the Los Angeles Philharmonic, and just about every choir in Southern California, in the madcap Shrine Auditorium in downtown LA. You can even get a "Dudamel Dog" at Pinks Hot Dogs after the performance if you are so inclined.

[Nachtigall]

I was present last night, sitting in the side stalls and feel that both RoberLeDiable in #51 and pilamon in #55 sum up the experience well. A friend of mine, also present, went so far as to describe the performance as "dull". I wouldn't go that far, but there were certainly almost painfully slow moments, where Dudamel seemed to be saying, for example, "Listen to how slowly and quietly I can get those fourteen double basses to play". However, despite all the justified interpretative misgivings, for me the sheer sense of occasion triumphed. The big moments were superbly carried off and the choir was excellent. I look forward to assessing the recorded performance in surround sound tonight on BBC2.

[Serial_Apologist]

However, listening to the long pauses (even between phrases!) I thought to myself that this can't be going down well on the radio.

I have yet to hear this (the repeat), but may I in pre-emption suggest rather well? In the auditorium you are lumbered in a slow performance, and the feeling of being unable to get away, especially if forced to stand long periods, is more boredom-inducing than any other I can think of. In the comfort of one's own home, slow-downs in musical tempo/dynamics can more propitiously induce that slow-down in bodily functions said to accompany meditative states that might have been the composer's farsighted intention, than cramped in overheated circumstances against strangers, halitosis etc, after queuing up for hours.

S-A