Prom 47 - 21.08.14: War Requiem, CBSO, Gritton / Spence / Müller-Brachmann / Nelsons

[amateur51]

I'm grateful to Keraulophone for the link to the Holloway article, which I had not previously seen. Nor can I agree with Mary Chambers that the article shows that Holloway "never understood Britten" - he praises many other Britten works in the course of it - or that it constitutes a "hilarious pronouncement". Quite the reverse. It is upsetting because so much of it is "on the money".

Let me raise my head above the parapet: I feel Holloway speaks for me too in his doubts about the work, and in his praise of the two sections - the Agnus Dei and Lachrymosa - which seem to me to transcend those doubts. I can't speak for others, but I do know that - for good reasons - more than a few people out here share Holloway's reservations about the War Requiem, without necessarily feeling able to express them as he has the courage to do.

For one thing, who wants to spoil the pleasure (if that is the right word here) of others, who do find the work a profound and moving experience? For another, as Holloway says, there is a certain mainstream political correctness at work here, which makes it difficult to express doubts without sounding either callous or provocative.

I am personally convinced that the War Requiem's "effectiveness" and the clever layout of Britten's forces will not guarantee it a place, ultimately, amongst his strongest works, such as Grimes, Budd, Screw and many of the song cycles (notably Winter Words) and chamber pieces. Rather, another century may come to view it rather as we do Stainer's Crucifixion: as an exercise in easy piety, high on "feel good" factors and low on musical substance.

But I have said more than enough, and will now duck beneath that parapet!

How to explain the majority reaction of both the audience last evening and the comments on here, I wonder?

Are we all 'politically correct'?

[Master Jacques]

How to explain the majority reaction of both the audience last evening and the comments on here, I wonder?

Are we all 'politically correct'?

Now you see why I was not keen to put my head above the parapet!

I hope I made clear that I would not wish to argue with or spoil the pleasure of people who admired the work, or its Proms performance.

I simply wanted to express my view, which I know is shared by others (though your response shows why we are perhaps afraid to admit it in public forum). And I wanted to make clear that Mr Holloway is not some eccentric in a minority of one.

Time will tell what staying power the work really has.

[Master Jacques]

How to explain the majority reaction of both the audience last evening and the comments on here, I wonder?

Are we all 'politically correct'?

To answer your question without evasion, I'd say "that's for you to decide". Personally, I would not describe myself as untainted my that singular modern evil! But I do strive to separate (as best I can) my socially conditioned beliefs from my musical judgements: and in this case, I finally had to admit (not without pain or difficulty) that I found Britten's War Requiem came up short in the latter department - according to my lights, which correspond quite closely to Mr Holloway's.

[vinteuil]

How to explain the majority reaction of both the audience last evening and the comments on here, I wonder?

:

... o come now, Ammy. The majority is seldom right when it comes to matters of aesthetics. A Prom audience in the heat of the moment is the worst place to make a considered judgment; they're often swept away by a populist 'emotional' sentiment. I'm with Holloway and Hensher here...

Rather, another century may come to view it rather as we do Stainer's Crucifixion: as an exercise in easy piety, high on "feel good" factors and low on musical substance.

... so well put!

[David Underdown]

Boys have a very different 'chest' / almost high tenor voice sound that Britten often exploits at different stages of their 'unbroken' voices, and in Ceremony Of Carols and the Spring Symphony, he writes for that very full-blooded male sound nearer the bottom of the register. Most girls groups I heave heard singing in those regions just sound thinner. I'm absolutely with Mary on this.

Except as pointed out earlier in this thread Ceremony of Carols wasn't written for boys' choir.

There's very little empirical evidence for a gender-based difference in sound in young children. Blind tests tend to indcate as I said that the difference is actually in training.

Of course it was written for a boys choir, that's what English cathedrals were expected to have, but I don't think that being in the score is necessarily an indication it can never be done any other way.

[Mary Chambers]

The anti-War Requiem views are hardly new. Stravinsky, after all, felt the same. I would agree that it probably isn't Britten's greatest music, but he wrote it as a popular piece that would get a message across - and that it definitely does. If the message ceases to be relevant, it will possibly become less popular. Who knows? It doesn't really matter. Britten always claimed he wasn't interested in posterity, and wrote everything for the here and now (though I suspect he did think that some of his work would become immortal).

I think it will always be a cut above Stainer's Crucifixion, though!

Afterthought: I have views about Philip Hensher that are probably best not written down.

[Lento]

I have heard reservations voiced about this work, more or less along the lines described, before, so they are not exactly maverick. I am happy to appreciate it as a powerful bit of musical writing on its own terms but would not be entirely dismissive of those who see qualities in it which jar for them.

[vinteuil]

Afterthought: I have views about Philip Hensher that are probably best not written down.

... Mary - you ca'n't just say that and leave us panting. A hint, or a PM, might help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hensher

[Mary Chambers]

... Mary - you ca'n't just say that and leave us panting. A hint, or a PM, might help...

Oh yes I can! Just accept that I am not keen on him, and not just because of his views on Britten.

[BBMmk2]

The silence at the end of Oramo's Job was similarly protracted (repeat this afternoon, 2 - 4pm)... or seemed so - the conductor seemed to be able to dictate its length by body language and I suspect Nelsons did the same.

[Cross posted to similar effect with Vods]

Must try and hear this concert...

Andris Nelsons did this at the Coventry Anniversary Concert as well.

[Ockeghem's Razor]

Well, well. There I was congratulating myself on how far I had travelled in my appreciation of this piece since I first heard it* as a callow 19 year old whose musical awareness had been formed by his grandfather's 78s of Jussi Bjoerling singing arias by Verdi and Puccini....And now, as far as Hensher and Holloway are concerned, it seems that all I have is rather second rate taste.


* Edinburgh International Festival 1968, and, yes, that stellar performance was wasted on me then.

[Maclintick]

I'm grateful to Keraulophone for the link to the Holloway article, which I had not previously seen. Nor can I agree with Mary Chambers that the article shows that Holloway "never understood Britten" - he praises many other Britten works in the course of it - or that it constitutes a "hilarious pronouncement". Quite the reverse. It is upsetting because so much of it is "on the money".

I'd not come across the Holloway article before, which is a great polemic, & given greater force as he's so plainly admiring of plenty of other Britten works, including Billy Budd, which many find lacking in musical & dramatic worth compared to its immediate predecessors. For an aspiring student composer, being obliged to join in officially-enforced Britten-worship in 1962 must have been galling.

One man's meat etc. I personally find the Verdi Requiem, so admired by Holloway, with it's cheesy operatics and drums'n'brass pseudo-militaristic depiction of Hell, a total turn-off, though I can understand that it caters for audiences' preference for maximum decibels ( Victor Hochhauser understood this !) . Give me Berlioz's anyday, for his stupefyingly cavernous musical depiction of the terrors of death, & that proto-Mahlerian "Offertorium" whose inspiration equals anything by Ben or Giuseppe.

I was present last night, & found Andris Nelsons' and his forces' meticulous observance of Britten's score very moving, apart from the under-tempo "Dies Irae". The gallery trebles sounded exactly as the composer is said to have wanted, rougher-edged & more street-smart than anodyne Anglican choristers.

[Mary Chambers]

I first heard it live when I was 26 (Pears, Harper, Hemsley, RLPO, Charles Groves) and was bowled over by it. Britten had been ill, I think, but was in the audience. I must have heard the recording before that (my husband owned it) but it's the live performance I really remember. It was almost half a century ago, but is still quite clear in my mind (except I couldn't remember the baritone's surname when I came to write this, although I knew his first name and could see his face before my eyes).

I've sung a lot of Requiems, including the Britten, Berlioz, Verdi, Fauré, Dvorak, Mozart and no doubt others I've forgotten.The Britten comes in my top three to sing, along with Mozart and probably Verdi. Berlioz didn't write an alto line so it's not a favourite of mine, though spectacular. Britten's obviously stands apart because of the Owen poems. ("The idea was good", as Britten said.) The Dvorak was my least favourite. I found it dull to sing.

I'm not going to argue with Messrs Holloway and Hensher. They are what they are. Of course, they may be reading this forum, in disguise.

[amateur51]

... o come now, Ammy. The majority is seldom right when it comes to matters of aesthetics. A Prom audience in the heat of the moment is the worst place to make a considered judgment; they're often swept away by a populist 'emotional' sentiment. I'm with Holloway and Hensher here...

Oh dear vints, the point is that the Proms audience responded 'in the heat of the moment' with 90 seconds of total silence, i.e., in a way entirely atypical of a Proms audience 'in the heat of the moment'

[amateur51]

Now you see why I was not keen to put my head above the parapet!

I hope I made clear that I would not wish to argue with or spoil the pleasure of people who admired the work, or its Proms performance.

I simply wanted to express my view, which I know is shared by others (though your response shows why we are perhaps afraid to admit it in public forum). And I wanted to make clear that Mr Holloway is not some eccentric in a minority of one.

Time will tell what staying power the work really has.

Bless your tender heart