Prom 2 (31.07.21) - The Golden Age of Broadway

[Ein Heldenleben]

I can’t help feeling that you’re missing marvin’s clearly implicit point, JLW. It’s obvious that the men are just better players than the women. Women shouldn’t be allowed near a trombone. The sight of some of the string players running offstage because they’d all forgotten their bows was embarrassing. And that missed entry in the Sibelius because a wind player thought it necessary to re-apply her lipstick? It’s a disgrace.

On topic I’d be interested in your views on the singing tonight . Louise Dearman is knocking everyone else off the stage ( in my humble etc) .though the gents have found the English idiom of My Fair Lady more to their liking than South Pacific ….

[Ein Heldenleben]

Born in Peru, Indiana, he was the only surviving child of a wealthy family. His mother was apparently 'the indulged daughter of the richest man in Indiana'.

From Indiana to Broadway by way of Harvard or Yale ?

[underthecountertenor]

Apologies. I’m having to reserve tonight’s concert for another time. I’ll try to remember to let you know!

[LMcD]

From Indiana to Broadway by way of Harvard or Yale ?

Apparently he wrote some 300 songs while minoring in music in New haven.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well ... I hadn't decided whether to watch the Sibelius, but you've really whetted my appetite!

I’ve only just sussed that this entire woke non -debate is about last night’s First night and the BBC Symphony Orchestra which is very confusing as this is the Golden Age Of Broadway thread and the music tonight is being performed by the very wonderful BBC Concert Orchestra . It appears that Bluestateprommer and me are (possibly) the only people singing along and tapping our feet to this wonderful (inclusive ) music. Can we be left in peace ?

[french frank]

Just to clarify: I was in the process of moving said posts when the last two from utct and Heldenleben popped up, so I've deleted them.

Carry on Broadway!

[oddoneout]

Call me cynical, but I wonder whether the word “singer” rather than “soprano”, “tenor”, etc. merely suggests the need for the voice to be miked up to compensate for either poor voice projection or overloaded orchestration.

Isn't it more a reflection of the programme content? Does show music use the terms soprano, tenor etc?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Isn't it more a reflection of the programme content? Does show music use the terms soprano, tenor etc?

Most Broadway musical numbers are written for voices which often don’t have the range of opera singers - though tonight’s singers I suspect have that sort of range if not vocal power . A lot of Broadway numbers tend to lie in the mezzo range for women and Baritone for men . Quite a few Broadway numbers barely stretch an octave or octave and a half at a push .You have to be careful about generalising because at least one singer tonight was a full on Soprano who could clearly hit the high notes and indeed one song Some Enchanted Evening was written for the famous operatic Bass Enzo Pinza but sung tonight by a West End musical baritone Jamie Parker . Though the other Pinza song in the musical This Nearly Was Mine was confusingly sung by Clarke Peters who , to my ear Is more of a Broadway Bass - Baritone.

[bluestateprommer]

Singer of the night - Cole Porter himself doing Anything Goes ? Who seemed to have an English accent but wasn’t he New England posh?

I was happily surprised to hear that recording of CP himself performing "Anything Goes". It put me in mind of the title of Stephen Sondheim's commentary on CP in Finishing the Hat, "Camp and Dazzle", to hear CP's delivery of the lyrics. He took the song at certainly a slower pace compared to tonight's Prom, and it's evident how much he relishes the words, as well he should, since he wrote them . Plus, if nothing else, I actually caught more of the words with CP, at the slower pace, admittedly with just the piano as accompaniment, vs. a full orchestra.

But on the question of "Singer of the night", on the basis of just one song, I would have to say Katie Hall, because the standout number of the evening, at least IMHO, was her delivery of "All the Things You Are". Just the right touches of melancholy and heartache, totally spot on. I'll revisit that number in due course on iPlayer.

Isn't it more a reflection of the programme content? Does show music use the terms soprano, tenor etc?

No, not that I have ever seen, at least in terms of programs for musicals that I've attended. But I agree with you in terms of reflection on the program content, of musicals vs. "classical music", or "concert hall music", to use a more unwieldy term. Interestingly, one differentiation to address your point, as related to EA's, comes from a somewhat left-field source, namely a Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall conversation between Albrecht Mayer and Diana Damrau, before the New Year's Eve 2019 concert, where DD sang several American show tunes. The transcript of the English subtitles (complete with quirky English; AM and DD obviously conversed in German) relevant to the question is thus (I've bolded what I think is the money point):

"AM: The first question I simply have to ask today is this: When you sing Bernstein, Weill, or Gershwin songs, how do you hold your voice in check, if you sang Queen of the Night or Traviata before?

DD: You have to approach it differently. What's important with these pieces, at least it's very important to me, is that I try to sing them as naturally as possible, like when I'm conversing. Of course the ambitus is not as extreme as opera. There's a huge orchestra, true, and that's why most musicals are done with a microport, to bring out fine points in the lyrics and the timbres, which can only be done by easing off the breath support and the big operatic voice that reaches the last row. Maybe with some technical help. It's simply another genre."

DD also says later, in the context of a song obviously not in tonight's Prom (Sondheim's "Send in the Clowns"):

"There you need the mic, because the nuances have to be heard."

Heldenben's response above to you amplifies (sorry) the idea that DD mentioned. I can't articulate it as well, but another point to note is that, at least IMHO, with musicals, the songs are generally much more about delivering the lyrics and moving the story or revealing the character at that moment than about vocal pyrotechnics.

Plus, historically, and also stating the ridiculously obvious, Broadway theaters then and now are generally nowhere near the size of the Royal Albert Hall. If anything, the comparison is closer to Cadogan Hall, in terms of size. So amplification allows the singers / vocalists to convey nuances in the lyrics, without having to worry at the same time about trying to project into the hall simultaneously if they were not using microphones, per DD's point above.

[seabright]

For those who saw the Alan Bennett play or movie "The History Boys," Jamie Parker will be remembered as the church-going, piano-playing Scripps. He sang several numbers in the late-night 'Sinatra Prom' in 2015 with the John Wilson Orchestra and he was terrific in all of them. Indeed, his top note at the end of "I Won't Dance" deservedly brought the house down ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlwZZuFynMI

I look forward to seeing him again on BBC2 next Saturday.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was happily surprised to hear that recording of CP himself performing "Anything Goes". It put me in mind of the title of Stephen Sondheim's commentary on CP in Finishing the Hat, "Camp and Dazzle", to hear CP's delivery of the lyrics. He took the song at certainly a slower pace compared to tonight's Prom, and it's evident how much he relishes the words, as well he should, since he wrote them . Plus, if nothing else, I actually caught more of the words with CP, at the slower pace, admittedly with just the piano as accompaniment, vs. a full orchestra.

But on the question of "Singer of the night", on the basis of just one song, I would have to say Katie Hall, because the standout number of the evening, at least IMHO, was her delivery of "All the Things You Are". Just the right touches of melancholy and heartache, totally spot on. I'll revisit that number in due course on iPlayer.



No, not that I have ever seen, at least in terms of programs for musicals that I've attended. But I agree with you in terms of reflection on the program content, of musicals vs. "classical music", or "concert hall music", to use a more unwieldy term. Interestingly, one differentiation to address your point, as related to EA's, comes from a somewhat left-field source, namely a Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall conversation between Albrecht Mayer and Diana Damrau, before the New Year's Eve 2019 concert, where DD sang several American show tunes. The transcript of the English subtitles (complete with quirky English; AM and DD obviously conversed in German) relevant to the question is thus (I've bolded what I think is the money point):



DD also says later, in the context of a song obviously not in tonight's Prom (Sondheim's "Send in the Clowns"):



Heldenben's response above to you amplifies (sorry) the idea that DD mentioned. I can't articulate it as well, but another point to note is that, at least IMHO, with musicals, the songs are generally much more about delivering the lyrics and moving the story or revealing the character at that moment than about vocal pyrotechnics.

Plus, historically, and also stating the ridiculously obvious, Broadway theaters then and now are generally nowhere near the size of the Royal Albert Hall. If anything, the comparison is closer to Cadogan Hall, in terms of size. So amplification allows the singers / vocalists to convey nuances in the lyrics, without having to worry at the same time about trying to project into the hall simultaneously if they were not using microphones, per DD's point above.

It’s always perplexed me that the Coliseum in London was designed for musical performance but is the largest theatre in London . For the first few decades that must have meant unamplified performances and the fare was largely musical comedy. That means musical singers of that era must have been able to project over the (pretty large ) pit orchestra . After WW2 according to WIKI

“In 1947 the musical Annie Get Your Gun was staged at the Coliseum and had a staggeringly successful run for the time, of 1,304 performances and three continuous years which was the longest run in theatrical history. There then followed a long run of major American hits beginning with Kiss Me, Kate in 1951, Guys And Dolls in 1953, Pajama Game in 1955, and Damn Yankees in 1957. But this exceptional period did at last come to an end in 1957 when the production of The Bells Are Ringing failed to enthrall anyone.”

Shame about Bells are Ringing as it has a couple of good songs ( The Party’s Over / Just In Time) but I reckon some of those 50’s musical hits probably had unamplified stars as well. I don’t think the likes of Ethel Merman and Howard Keel would have needed it and the KMK roles are often taken by “opera” voices . So what happened in the 50’s and 60’s ? Why are musical singers always amplified now ? Do they simply not have the vocal training?
It’s now got absurd . I saw Bryn Terfel in Sweeney Todd at the Colly and , guess what , he has a face mic . One of the loudest voices in Opera . As a stage tech told me -once you mic one you have to mic everyone. It’s phenomenally expensive - part of the mike has to be thrown away once a week. In Sweeney Todd the entire chorus was face miked - that’s thousands of pounds a week thrown away . It also sounds compressed and distorted …one of the reasons I go to few musicals these days.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The TV broadcast recording appeared this evening. The usual jabbering, to fill any available seconds with no music, was as expected. What did me between the eyes was 'Special Guest' Bonnie Langford, who neglected to tell us the Pope was a Catholic, and other indisputable facts well-known to all, but very excitedly told us the following:

"I think that musicals, in fact... on stage ... I was interested to find out that Oklahoma! cost $75,000 to produce on stage, whereas films were at least a million dollars. So there was a lot more at stake, as you say. Often they would actually put them on stage first, because it gave them a chance to find that structure. But then it had to be adjusted to the fact that it wasn't someone singing in the wings to start with and then walking on stage. You had to capture that another way."

I spent the rest of the broadcast thinking 'Did she really say that?' I had to listen to it again on iPlayer just to double-check, using sub-titles for confirmation. Of course, there have been musicals that have been films first and stage musicals later (e.g. The Wizard of Oz; Beauty and the Beast), but the vast majority have been primarily stage productions, with films following, often after many years. Yet Bonnie Langford seemed to find this an amazing new discovery.

[marvin]

I watched this on TV last night. A pleasant enough two hours of mainly wallpaper music but there was so much missing and good old BBC Concert Orchestra just were on on another gig, I suppose. I expect we've been spoilt by previous John Wilson concerts with the arrangements by him that brought everything to life.
It's not a concert that I'd revisit.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I watched this on TV last night. A pleasant enough two hours of mainly wallpaper music but there was so much missing and good old BBC Concert Orchestra just were on on another gig, I suppose. I expect we've been spoilt by previous John Wilson concerts with the arrangements by him that brought everything to life.
It's not a concert that I'd revisit.

Ok it wasn’t John Wilson but it was better sung ( and acted ) than quite a few of his gigs. Louise Dearman was absolutely outstanding .
With John Wilson the “arrangements” are generally by Hollywood studio arrangers of the 40’s and 50’s that he has reconstructed from constant listening - an amazing achievement in itself . Last nights arrangers included Stanley Black, Andre Previn and Nelson Riddle . I don’t think John would claim superiority over them !

[marvin]

Ok it wasn’t John Wilson but it was better sung ( and acted ) than quite a few of his gigs. Louise Dearman was absolutely outstanding .
With John Wilson the “arrangements” are generally by Hollywood studio arrangers of the 40’s and 50’s that he has reconstructed from constant listening - an amazing achievement in itself . Last nights arrangers included Stanley Black, Andre Previn and Nelson Riddle . I don’t think John would claim superiority over them !

I think that previous singers including Matt Ford and Sarah Boggess to name but two were far better. The young singer last night Katie someone was OK but a bit loud and harsh. Julian Ovenden also was a big surprise to me then but his intonation at times was a bit off.