Lighter Music at the Proms

[Alison]

With regard to Prom 2:

Seems a while since our debates on whether this repertoire belongs to the Proms.

I fear my team lost.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Seems a while since our debates on whether this repertoire belongs to the Proms.

I fear my team lost.

The Proms has always had lighter repertoire hasn’t it ? I don’t think Richard Rodgers and Gershwin are in anyway inferior composers to the Strauss family or Sullivan . In fact in some ways they are better (imv) . There is more emotional depth in Carousel than any of the Savoy operas (imv) . Others will disagree .Strauss and G and S used to have their own proms why not the better Broadway composers?

[gradus]

The Proms has always had lighter repertoire hasn’t it ? I don’t think Richard Rodgers and Gershwin are in anyway inferior composers to the Strauss family or Sullivan . In fact in some ways they are better (imv) . There is more emotional depth in Carousel than any of the Savoy operas (imv) . Others will disagree .Strauss and G and S used to have their own proms why not the better Broadway composers?

Seconded.

[french frank]

Seems a while since our debates on whether this repertoire belongs to the Proms.

I fear my team lost.

I think because one is arguing against a form of natural evolution (as with Radio 3). The victor will be "What People Like": in the end the majority wins. There is no intellectual argument that counts, neither reason nor justification.

[french frank]

I think I’ve produced an “intellectual argument” . Gershwin and Rodgers are just as good light composers as Sullivan and the Strauss’.The latter have had entire nights devoted to them since inception so why not the former. The real question is why The Strauss family and G and S have disappeared to be replaced by Jacob Collier, Paloma Faith , Radio 3 salutes urban etc….That is very much to do with changing taste and crucially what R3 determines contemporary taste to be…

I'm not sure, though, that the Proms were ever about 'good composers' (as against less good composers). The Proms had evolved to focus on mainstream, 'core classical', G & S often a complete operetta rather than individual numbers from a dozen different ones; and Sullivan, in any case, accepted as a 'classical composer' because of his other works. The aim of the early Proms was to 'create' a new audience for what was then termed "good music", and it did so by mixing lighter music with 'core' works - nothing too esoteric. It was much the same method as slipping in the odd new work now, among more familiar works.

Arguably, the Proms had achieved their goal in creating the audience. It seems to me that the fear of that audience diminishing, and the consequent need to 'replenish' it that they are refocusing gradually on the 'mixed genre' method again.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm not sure, though, that the Proms were ever about 'good composers' (as against less good composers). The Proms had evolved to focus on mainstream, 'core classical', G & S often a complete operetta rather than individual numbers from a dozen different ones; and Sullivan, in any case, accepted as a 'classical composer' because of his other works. The aim of the early Proms was to 'create' a new audience for what was then termed "good music", and it did so by mixing lighter music with 'core' works - nothing too esoteric. It was much the same method as slipping in the odd new work now, among more familiar works.

Arguably, the Proms had achieved their goal in creating the audience. It seems to me that the fear of that audience diminishing, and the consequent need to 'replenish' it that they are refocusing gradually on the 'mixed genre' method again.

The opening concert programme in 1895 reveals a pot- pourri , indeed ragbag of masterpieces and contemporary classical and sub classical pops - some of it now totally forgotten. Yes the Proms went through an ascetic period in the Glock, Ponsonby years : perhaps now it’s rediscovering its populist roots . I don’t have a problem with that as long as it’s quality popular ….like Rodgers and Gershwin.

[french frank]

The opening concert programme in 1895 reveals a pot- pourri , indeed ragbag of masterpieces and contemporary classical and sub classical pops - some of it now totally forgotten. Yes the Proms went through an ascetic period in the Glock, Ponsonby years : perhaps now it’s rediscovering its populist roots . I don’t have a problem with that as long as it’s quality popular ….like Rodgers and Gershwin.

I think you're saying what I was saying. I was trying to express objectively what I think is happening/has happened: the 'natural evolution', back to the beginning. I would not describe the Glock and Ponsonby years as 'ascetic' - even suggest that perhaps that was where Wood and Newman would have hoped to be! I do find 'as long as it’s quality popular' somewhat problematic - the phrase, I mean, not the opinion. 'Popular' is indeed 'What People Like' and tends to carry all before it, and 'quality' is not a precise term.

[mikealdren]

Just heard Feedback on R4 talking about the Proms and 'Taking them out of London'. Great idea taking music further afield but the Proms are an annual festival in the RAH. Don't take away anything from that, anything else is extra, why not find a new name like the 'Hundred'. At least we don't confuse that with cricket.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think you're saying what I was saying. I was trying to express objectively what I think is happening/has happened: the 'natural evolution', back to the beginning. I would not describe the Glock and Ponsonby years as 'ascetic' - even suggest that perhaps that was where Wood and Newman would have hoped to be! I do find 'as long as it’s quality popular' somewhat problematic - the phrase, I mean, not the opinion. 'Popular' is indeed 'What People Like' and tends to carry all before it, and 'quality' is not a precise term.

Yes we are agreeing . On a natural history note I don’t think there can be “natural evolution back to the beginning” . It’s either extinction or adaptation . So human beings cant I think evolve back to chimpanzees let alone single cell creatures.
Its worth looking at those early proms - yes there are the classics but there’s a phenomenal amount of low quality (in my view) popular music that is now completely forgotten .
Quality is not a precise term but then very little in criticism is that does not invoke the use of other question-begging terms . In “quality” works I would both look for a high level of technical skill, some originality (question- begging) and a refusal to rely on what the literary critic I,A. Richards called the stock response. So just looking at Richard Rodgers - the last half hour of the first act of Carousel shows a lot of that quality . But most popular song in the musical You’ll Never Walk alone for me is just too sentimental (though weirdly I like the Gerry Marsden and esp the Kop plainsong version) . Rodgers needed the astringency of Lorenz Hart to bring out the best in him maybe . That line in I wish I were in love again - “when love congeals , it soon reveals, the faint aroma of performing seals” . Shakespeare would have been happy with that .

Other artists that (imv) embrace quality and were popular (defined by sales) Dickens , The Beatles , Louise Armstrong , Nat King Cole , John Le Carré, Nina Simone , The Who (up to and including Quadrophenia ) , Van Gogh (never sold a painting but sold a lot of Athena prints ) the list goes on and on. Benjamin Britten (War Requiem sold a million in vinyl) , Verdi , Puccini etc etc etc

[french frank]

Yes we are agreeing .

Oh, dear, I did want to come back on that but it may be a separate thread is needed, and the generalities of the concert programme removed elsewhere? I impose a self-denying ordinance upon myself!

Let the discussion of the Golden Age of Broadway continue.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Oh, dear, I did want to come back on that but it may be a separate thread is needed, and the generalities of the concert programme removed elsewhere? I impose a self-denying ordinance upon myself!

Let the discussion of the Golden Age of Broadway continue.

You might as well post here as the thread otherwise isn’t exciting much interest . I suspect interest in it will pick up in the days leading to that much longed- for event - the opening of the world’s greatest music festival WITH an audience ….yippee
Sorry celebratory emojis in wrong place…

[hmvman]

...G & S often a complete operetta rather than individual numbers from a dozen different ones; and Sullivan, in any case, accepted as a 'classical composer' because of his other works.....

I find this interesting in that I've always considered G&S operas to be 'classical music', albeit in a lighter vein. A few years ago the MD of the choir I sang with decided we all had to audition to keep our places in the choir. My audition piece was 'When All Night Long a Chap Remains' from Iolanthe. I passed the audition but I was surprised when the MD said, "I thought you'd choose something classical." I thought I had!

Maybe this is a topic for another thread...

[french frank]

You might as well post here as the thread otherwise isn’t exciting much interest . I suspect interest in it will pick up in the days leading to that much longed- for event - the opening of the world’s greatest music festival WITH an audience ….yippee
Sorry celebratory emojis in wrong place…

Alpie can move us on when the serious business starts

Yes we are agreeing . On a natural history note I don’t think there can be “natural evolution back to the beginning” . It’s either extinction or adaptation . So human beings cant I think evolve back to chimpanzees let alone single cell creatures.

Probably not the most appropriate of term, but OED might cut me a bit of slack with 'to unfold', or even 'To be transformed from one form into another by a process of gradual modification, esp. from a more rudimentary to a more highly organized condition.' Especially, not exclusively. My Latin made me use it rather too literally: I should have used 'revolution'!

I think the point I really wanted to make was that 'quality' isn't necessarily the most appropriate metric, however you define it. I would rather hear a string quintet by Michael Haydn (who has been represented in only three Proms, as far as I can see) than any work by Gershwin (featured in 54 events) or Rodgers (featured in 24). Or is 'quality' something a work has or doesn't have, and M. Haydn has 'quality' too' (but not very much)?

Other artists that (imv) embrace quality and were popular (defined by sales) Dickens , The Beatles , Louise Armstrong , Nat King Cole , John Le Carré, Nina Simone , The Who (up to and including Quadrophenia ) , Van Gogh (never sold a painting but sold a lot of Athena prints ) the list goes on and on. Benjamin Britten (War Requiem sold a million in vinyl) , Verdi , Puccini etc etc etc

It all comes down to: What are the Proms for? What is the Glastonbury Festival for (and should it move round the country, for that matter ?)? My view of what has happened is that the BBC has now pigeonholed classical music as 'niche'. And in business terms it doesn't warrant the amount of airtime or money spent on it. Hence 'reasons' are found to somehow include any sort of music that can be claimed to have 'quality' in the Proms and on Radio 3. And the new areas have the added advantage of being widely popular, bringing in the crowds and the money. No more than that.

[french frank]

I find this interesting in that I've always considered G&S operas to be 'classical music', albeit in a lighter vein. A few years ago the MD of the choir I sang with decided we all had to audition to keep our places in the choir. My audition piece was 'When All Night Long a Chap Remains' from Iolanthe. I passed the audition but I was surprised when the MD said, "I thought you'd choose something classical." I thought I had!

Interesting. I think it may be thought of as light more because of the subject matter than Sullivan's well-crafted (and sometimes pastiche) music.

[hmvman]

Interesting. I think it may be thought of as light more because of the subject matter than Sullivan's well-crafted (and sometimes pastiche) music.

That's a fair point.

However, I think that the closing scene of Act I of The Yeomen of the Guard is, IMVHO, a match for anything Verdi wrote.