Proms classical?

[hmvman]

There are so many genres in music now - seems to be a new one every week - I have two - Classical and non-Classical - I know what these mean and I think all on the forum, unless they are of a particularly pedantic frame of mind, also know.

Hmm, sort of agree but there are grey areas though, aren't there? A friend of mine refused to categorise Gershwin as 'classical' so 'Rhapsody in Blue', in his book, wasn't a classical piece.

[Ein Heldenleben]

You don't seem too keen to offer such a definition yourself....

"World Music" at the Proms goes back to at least 2002, but has become a somewhat discredited term...

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/jul/24/guardian-world-music-outdated-global

But as I've implied above, PhilpT's list of composers and musical genres - Mahler, Bruckner, Messiaen (all of whom have featured regularly in recent seasons - just browse through the reviews and comments on earlier Proms seasons on this very forum) and Indian Ragas and so on, are closely mirrored by the range of Classical (howsoever you define it) and other genres this very year....

Remember that this is a shorter season than usual, and there are no orchestras visiting from abroad. So choices could have been a bit restricted...

But take a look at the final two weeks - Arnold's 5th with Walton, an all-Bartok night (with a Hungarian folk band), Knussen and Benjamin, a complete Tristan, JEG with Handel and Bach, Berg and Korngold, J Strauss II and Richard Strauss, Hindemith, Messiaen , Rautavaara, Saint-Saens' organ blockbuster, a complete Matthew Passion.....and more premieres...
And Rattle in town tomorrow with a symphonic Stravinsky trilogy....

Not so bad, is it?

I think the relative lack of Bruckner and Mahler this year is almost certainly a consequence of covid. They both need large orchestras (though there are cutdown Mahler options ) and in the case of Mahler sometimes large choirs. I think the restrictions have forced programmers to think really creatively and I have been very taken with the breadth and quality of “classical” music presented. This week has been a bit eclectic though. I can’t understand the grumbling - I’ve listened to virtually every concert sometimes twice and then viewed on telly . Really remarkable . In contrast I got the Met Ooera digital subscription for my birthday and have viewed in six months prescisely one opera…

[french frank]

I fail to see what the Proms offers now to someone like I was 30 years ago.

It may be that there are very few 'young people' around now who are like you were 30 years ago? My tastes are probably like yours (I wouldn't be particularly complimentary about my own musical tastes), but for the Proms read Radio 3. I thought I would always have Radio 3, but having taught me the rudiments it decided it was time to move on. It leaves the remnants, mostly in a form I can't digest.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hmm, sort of agree but there are grey areas though, aren't there? A friend of mine refused to categorise Gershwin as 'classical' so 'Rhapsody in Blue', in his book, wasn't a classical piece.

Isn’t it an example of a high quality crossover piece drawing on about four separate traditions - jazz, blues , classical ( the keyboard writing is pure classic technique with hardly any piano jazz or blues licks like finger slides and scrunches ) and Broadway ? Even in its original version for the Paul Whiteman band it’s not really jazz - it has no improvisation and it’s not really blues - though it has blue notes in it it doesn’t have a single twelve / eight bar blues section. The big lyrical tune is straight out of Broadway. Great piece though….

[cloughie]

Hmm, sort of agree but there are grey areas though, aren't there? A friend of mine refused to categorise Gershwin as 'classical' so 'Rhapsody in Blue', in his book, wasn't a classical piece.

Yes absolutely but if you pigeon hole the music rather than the composer then Rhapsody in Blue, PC, Am in Paris are classical but nis songs are non-classical. Did he write opera (classical) and musicals (non-classical) yes. Summertime sung as part of the opera - classical. Summertime sung by The Zombies - non-classical. My decisions are often made on where I will put them on the shelves or in my index.

[hmvman]

Yes absolutely but if you pigeon hole the music rather than the composer then Rhapsody in Blue, PC, Am in Paris are classical but nis songs are non-classical. Did he write opera (classical) and musicals (non-classical) yes. Summertime sung as part of the opera - classical. Summertime sung by The Zombies - non-classical. My decisions are often made on where I will put them on the shelves or in my index.

Yes, I agree and my friend also based his decisions on the placing of his records. I'm not sure where he was on the PC but the Gershwin discs I remember were filed in the 'Songs and Shows' section. All of my Gershwin discs are filed in my 'main', 'classical' section.

Completely agree with you, Heldenleben, regarding RiB.

I suppose my point was that it's difficult to put an absolute definition of 'classical music', especially in terms of what should be included in The Proms. I enjoy hearing the old warhorses when they're trotted out but I also very much enjoy being surprised by something new and different, regardless of genre.

[Cockney Sparrow]

So I presume that (ref Cloughie above) there is general support for Porgy and Bess making it over the line to take its place between Humperdink, Gilbert & sullivan (or Gluck) on the CD shelves?

[Bryn]

So I presume that (ref Cloughie above) there is general support for Porgy and Bess making it over the line to take its place between Humperdink, Gilbert & sullivan (or Gluck) on the CD shelves?

Along with Joplin'a Treemonisher.

[cloughie]

So I presume that (ref Cloughie above) there is general support for Porgy and Bess making it over the line to take its place between Humperdink, Gilbert & sullivan (or Gluck) on the CD shelves?

Or maybe between Geminiani and Ginastera but G&S maybe should be under S as Gilbert was the lyricist!