For Holocaust Memorial Day 2021, a video dedicated to the Roma and Sinti communities with music written by Russian Oleg Ponomarev and performed by youth students from the Conservatoire of Scotland and pupils of Douglas Academy in Glasgow.
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Each year there are fewer remaining direct survivors. -
considering that a survivor aged 15 in 1945 would be over 90 today - mortality figures would back up your statement!Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
The much more worrying statistic, as pointed out in the lunchtime R4 program abt the female SS guards was just how ordinary they were yet could act in so evil a manner - civilised behaviour is a veneer and the type of nationalist politics that looks for scapegoats among the 'other' can induce and encourage the behaviour seen in Germany 1933-1945 and of course elsewhere upto today.Comment
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And this, not I feel unrelated link, was posted on another topic yesterday.Originally posted by Frances_iom View Post
Notwithstanding the lessons I and those who think politically similarly to me are constantly assailed with, I still remain wedded to the idea of class as basic to human affairs until it no longer is so, and "identity politics" a cul-de-sac to nowhere.
Jews have the longest history of ethnic persecution of any group I can think of. Not surprisingly they have learned from and adapted to that history by creating means of self-defense which have placed them at various advantages in the development of civilisations, and not just capitalism - for which the unscrupulous have picked them out for easy scapegoating. I shall be putting a lit candle in my living room window tonight in memory of the Holocaust.Comment
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I appreciate the sentiments S.A. Could you elaborate more on your thoughts that Class trump identity politics?Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostAnd this, not I feel unrelated link, was posted on another topic yesterday.
Notwithstanding the lessons I and those who think politically similarly to me are constantly assailed with, I still remain wedded to the idea of class as basic to human affairs until it no longer is so, and "identity politics" a cul-de-sac to nowhere.
Jews have the longest history of ethnic persecution of any group I can think of. Not surprisingly they have learned from and adapted to that history by creating means of self-defense which have placed them at various advantages in the development of civilisations, and not just capitalism - for which the unscrupulous have picked them out for easy scapegoating. I shall be putting a lit candle in my living room window tonight in memory of the Holocaust.Comment
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To my mind identity politics arise from having group labels attached to people which do not correlate with the actual people concerned, and which may then be adopted defensively by those very people as a form of defiance. I.e. "You say we are queer, whereas we prefer to think of ourselves as individuals - and, as individuals, gays, people of non-heterosexual orientation, who otherwise do not necessarily share any common characteristics". But if you are going to target us for the one facet of our make-up we do have in common, we will therefore band together for collective self-protection. Gays are just one example of other-attributed classifications selectively applied: we could say the same of "jews".Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
The difference lies in the long history and pre-history of human social evolution. Notwithstanding the Marxist association of the theory, it is generally agreed ( as far as I know) that humans lived without class up to the time when settlements came into being, agriculture was practised, and once the technology was invented for storing against adversity and for future use, somebody had to oversee protecting the surplus while others were out hunting, or waging war. That "somebody" had the spare time to think about things and come up with explanations which then became authoritative; and that person or group of persons thereby acquired the power to become the first ruling class. Class was born, and it has been around ever since in one form or another, as an objective reality, but always in relation to the means of production and the characteristic or "property" invested in something which is not immediately used up, transmogrifying in its character and ability to stay at the top.
And, by virtue of the dualistic character of language, for every "top" there always has to be a "bottom", and, with enough sophistication in the conceptualisation, various intermediary layers or gradations - in this case the class differentiations associated with unequal opportunity and distribution, and the compliants and opportunists who, by benefitting relativistically, act by subterfuge, access to privileged information or wisdom, if that be one's "take", to keep those under orders obedient to the system and those promulgating or upholding its values and practical status quo. This may have to be accomplished by falsely attributing blame to people easily classifiable by some trait or myth, however unfounded or distorted at best, who can thereby be made scapegoats for problems suffered by those less secure than the ruling classes, who are thereby diverted from pinning any blame where it genuinely lies, let alone adducing alternatives beyond matters of immediate rescue. This, together with trust that those obviously clever enough to have got to where they are must surely be qualified to keep us informed in our best interests, and the number of charlatans posing under worthy names throughout history, is probably as much responsible as anything for continuance of belief that this is "the best of all possible worlds". And so we leave where we came in.Last edited by Serial_Apologist; 28-01-21, 16:30.Comment
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Interesting. I’m exhausted tonight—received Covid Dose II—will comment over the weekendComment
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My opinion is that the long spiel, with its highly dubious premises, is a good example of the use of what is known as a Birmingham screwdriver - ie the use of a single, highly inappropriate tool, used to hammer a problem better solved by other ideas or tools.Comment
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A new idea to me, at least in linguistics. In philosophy, yes, and perhaps language at a very basic level (e.g. binary positive-negative). But when it becomes more complex the notion of categorisation seems to me more important than positive-negative. Unless I've missed your point?Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostIt isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.Comment
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I read some, but not all, of Hitler's Willing Executioners (Goldhagen) a few years ago. Its contention that reponsibility for the Holocaust lay with a much wider tranche of German and Austrian society than is conventionally asserted, caused a furore at the time. But the logic is inescapable - that it was widely known that the Jews were being systmatically eliminated in Nazi Germany. I choose 'eliminated' deliberately, since many may have chosen to end their thinking with such a concept, rather than imagining that millions were being systematically murdered.
Having read about the new Holocaust Exhibition at The Imperial War Museum, London, I understand that it attempts to convey what was involved in a way that seems to me similar to the book's thesis (it was originally a PhD thesis, in fact), the Guardian piece describing it as taking the Holocaust out of the shadows and into the light.Comment
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... yes - and the recent Nazis and Nobles showing how the German nobility was very much involved with Hitler and the Nazis is relevant -Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
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the sheer logistics needed eg to round up and transport thousands even in cattle trucks, means that many Germans and Austrians were well aware of what was happening - there was deliberate collective amnesia postwar - maybe this was essential to allow Germany to be rebuilt, now those in charge or even witnesses are now dead, the full details of the much wider knowledge can now be acknowledged.Comment
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... not just Germany and Austria - other countries in central and Eastern Europe. And France - I am always troubled that one of the stations you go through on the train from Paris to the Charles de Gaulle airport is Drancy - I wonder if there was ever a move to change the baleful name -Originally posted by Frances_iom View Post
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If that's directed at me, not sure what you mean.Originally posted by Frances_iom View PostComment
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Yes, the binary reference was meant to illustrate that opposites are language-defined; I was trying to illustrate how absolutes of this nature have been related to matters of class when speaking simplistically in terms of ruling class vs. working class, which we are often criticised for doing. I could have said roles are often treated reductively to concentrate on one aspect of a person's identity, but would have been putting my own points at cross-purposes, which I now see I was on the way to doing in emphasising class as being primary!Originally posted by french frank View PostComment
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