The Lost Sound - A documentary about the fortepiano

[Joseph K]

I know this is a reasonable argument, in that music composed would largely have been practical for performance at the time, but the question of whether the music would have been very different in general sound/technique/structure can only be speculative. Music written by any particular composer would be broadly similar across his/her works. Beethoven's piano music has the same gutsy strength, whether composed for the piano, the string quartet or the orchestra. The writing style was amended to some extent, but these slight modifications work as if well (or perhaps better) on modern instruments.
J.S.Bach didn't even modify his textures to any significant extent, writing similar musical lines, whether for keyboard, voice or any orchestral instruments.
So I don't hold with the view that composers' music wold have been very different, had modern instruments been available. In Beethoven's final piano sonata movement (Op.111) he wrote notes that could not be sustained on the instruments of the time, perhaps more in hope than expectation. That hope was eventually fulfilled, though not in his lifetime.

Hmm I'm not so sure the composers you mention didn't write idiomatically for instruments - which is what you appear to be suggesting. And what composers would have written had modern instruments been available is far more - as in at all! - speculative than whether their music would have been different in sound/technique etc. though I'm not sure what you mean by 'different' - different from what? Besides which, we know what composers - albeit different composers - write with different instruments at their disposal and the music is certainly 'different'...

[ardcarp]

....the question of whether the music would have been very different in general sound/technique/structure can only be speculative. Music written by any particular composer would be broadly similar across his/her works. Beethoven's piano music has the same gutsy strength, whether composed for the piano, the string quartet or the orchestra. The writing style was amended to some extent, but these slight modifications work as if well (or perhaps better) on modern instruments.
J.S.Bach didn't even modify his textures to any significant extent, writing similar musical lines, whether for keyboard, voice or any orchestral instruments.
So I don't hold with the view that composers' music wold have been very different, had modern instruments been available. In Beethoven's final piano sonata movement (Op.111) he wrote notes that could not be sustained on the instruments of the time, perhaps more in hope than expectation. That hope was eventually fulfilled, though not in his lifetime.

A very well-considered post if I may say so.

[Mandryka]

So I don't hold with the view that composers' music wold have been very different, had modern instruments been available.

Levin didn't need to say that. All he needed to say is that the music sounds very different if played on an old piano. That's why Bezuidenhout finds the fortepiano more exhilarating -- because the sound of the old instrument leads naturally to a certain type of performance which is more exciting, and hence it's a valid and productive experiment to play it on an old piano.

To me, this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_J5Mh4ldQ&ab_channel=PaulKomen-Topic

sounds very different from this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Em11vjoHg&ab_channel=QueenCureSky

though clearly in some sense they're exemplifying the same music.

[Bryn]

Hmm I'm not so sure the composers you mention didn't write idiomatically for instruments - which is what you appear to be suggesting. And what composers would have written had modern instruments been available is far more - as in at all! - speculative than whether their music would have been different in sound/technique etc. though I'm not sure what you mean by 'different' - different from what? Besides which, we know what composers - albeit different composers - write with different instruments at their disposal and the music is certainly 'different'...

Indeed, and as has been argued by others far more qualified than anyone here, what Beethoven wrote with the instrumental technology and characteristics of his time, cannot be fully realised on, say, a modern Steinway or, indeed, Broadwood. The way he exploited the different registers of the instruments he was familiar with
is lost with the even timbre of the modern piano. I am also reminded of a comment by Armando Iannucci during Saturday's "This Cultural Life" on Radio 4, in regard to his taking his Grade 1 piano exam on a grand, having learned on a small digital piano with unweighted keys. Escapements have developed significantly since Beethoven's day.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...in regard to his taking his Grade 1 piano exam on a grand, having learned on a small digital piano with unweighted keys.

[Bryn]

He somehow managed to pass, which he put down to sympathy. He was an adult learner, it should be stressed. The programme is well worth catching. His comment regarding the university of potential appeal of classical music and its lack of inherent exclusivity, or need of special knowledge to get something from, is a gem. LIke Frank Zappa, his musical education came via libraries.

[Bryn]

Indeed, and as has been argued by others far more qualified than anyone here, what Beethoven wrote with the instrumental technology and characteristics of his time, cannot be fully realised on, say, a modern Steinway or, indeed, Broadwood. The way he exploited the different registers of the instruments he was familiar with
is lost with the even timbre of the modern piano. I am also reminded of a comment by Armando Iannucci during Saturday's "This Cultural Life" on Radio 4, in regard to his taking his Grade 1 piano exam on a grand, having learned on a small digital piano with unweighted keys. Escapements have developed significantly since Beethoven's day.

Today, I got around to listening to the whole of the Armand Iannucci edition of "This Cultural Life". I would strongly recommend it, and by no means just for the section of his musical taste (Bruckner and Mahler, special favourites). The later sections on politics and international relations are also far more than of passing interest.

[RichardB]

There are far too many "would haves" in most arguments about Beethoven and the piano. What's wrong with "was"?

(edit) And: pushing imstruments to and beyond their received limits is something that composers do, without in any way thinking what they really need is an instrument without those limits.

[ardcarp]

...pushing instruments to and beyond their received limits is something that composers do, without in any way thinking what they really need is an instrument without those limits.

Some composers, maybe? I always think of the bassoon opening to The Rite of Spring. Sadly the same applies to tenor soloists...er, Rossini's Stabat Mater?

[Sir Velo]

Interesting to see that Edwin Beunk has embarked upon a series of 11 videos on the development of the fortepiano.

Clearly and insightfully expressed with persuasive performances from Riko Fukuda, these are the kind of videos which the BBC should be making (but never will).

[ardcarp]

Interesting to see that Edwin Beunk has embarked upon a series of 11 videos on the development of the fortepiano.

See post #21. I am working through them! Yes indeed very well expressed and demonstrated.

these are the kind of videos which the BBC should be making (but never will).

Agreed. Sadly. Anything faintly technical is considered too 'difficult' for the viewing public to understand. Insulting?

An afterthought. I really enjoyed last Sunday's EMS, Orchésographie, about Arbeau's early dance manual. Lucy Skeeping's dance expert on the programme, obviously totally versed in the subject (and teaching it) spoke so well; and yet it was quite hard to visualise exactly what the steps, the physical postures and occasional bodily contact actually looked like. A TV programme would have been absolutely fantastic. C'mon BBC. let's have one.
BTW the derivation of some words (e.g. Bransles, Gavotte) were likewise fascinating; especially the way they have subtly changed their meaning over the ages.

NB Orchésographie STILL not listed as available on the EMS website!

[MickyD]

Yes, the Beunk films are really fascinating. He has an engaging way with the audience and his passion for early keyboard instruments is evident. And apart from all that, it's wonderful to be able to explore his very impressive collection of instruments. A pity that Richard Burnett at Finchcocks was a bit too early in the game for something similar, a tour of his collection (now sadly dispersed) would have been terrific.

[Sir Velo]

A pity that Richard Burnett at Finchcocks was a bit too early in the game for something similar, a tour of his collection (now sadly dispersed) would have been terrific.

Agreed on that. A fascinating film on the collections at Finchcocks, Hatchlands etc here.

The Cobbe Collection at Hatchlands houses the largest collection of instruments owned by composers "of renown" in the world and has its own YouTube channel here. Some excellent and interestingly programmed concerts featuring sometimes obscure repertoire is performed by some of the lesser known, unsung heroes of the early music world. Alec Cobbe provides bite sized introductions to the instruments. All in all these films complement the Beunk series.

[AuntDaisy]

...
An afterthought. I really enjoyed last Sunday's EMS, Orchésographie, about Arbeau's early dance manual. Lucy Skeeping's dance expert on the programme, obviously totally versed in the subject (and teaching it) spoke so well; and yet it was quite hard to visualise exactly what the steps, the physical postures and occasional bodily contact actually looked like. A TV programme would have been absolutely fantastic. C'mon BBC. let's have one.
BTW the derivation of some words (e.g. Bransles, Gavotte) were likewise fascinating; especially the way they have subtly changed their meaning over the ages.

NB Orchésographie STILL not listed as available on the EMS website!

"Thoinot Arbeau's Orchesographie" was a repeat from 2019, so it helpfully appears on page 5 (& is unedited for the next 21 days.)
Not overly intuitive of Auntie & confusing as its neighbours are heavily edited / butchered podcast versions (the EMS Special: Al-Andalus! was originally 3 hours, not 30 mins).

[ardcarp]

I did get an email reply to my complaint about the EMS website, thus:



The programme is available here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008glk

All best wishes

Les [Pratt, producer]



That wasn't the point. I could find the programme using Radio 3 Schedules. It was the fact that it was, and still is, missing from 'Available Episodes' on the website.