BaL 9.11.19 - Mahler: Symphony no. 3

[cloughie]

Live Studio Recording, Klaus-von-Bismarck Saal, WDR, Cologne, 31 August 1959. There is another (1955) live recording with Mitropoulos conducting the NYPO in the Profil Gustav Mahler edition box

I have a 1956 live recording from Carnegie Hall, NYPO Mitropoulos which is on 1CD - movt lengths 25.17/7.41/13.43/8.57/4.34/18.04. It is on Archipel.

[richardfinegold]

I've never grown tired of the Horenstein/LSO version. Spectaculour recording too!

I was surprised when Gramophone featured that recording a few months ago in one of their retrospectives “Classics Reconsidered”.
They trashed the CD reissue, stating that the balances were terrible, and weren’t all that enthusiastic about the performance. I hadn’t listened to it for a while so it made me listen to It again. The reviewers made it sound like the brass was up front and the strings coming from the back. I think what may have occurred is that the brass was given a slight volume boost relative to the lp, which I used to have but haven’t heard since I gave up my analog rig a few years back. I wonder who owns the rights to that recording; it was on Unicorn in the U.K. and Nonesuch in the States

[Bryn]

I was surprised when Gramophone featured that recording a few months ago in one of their retrospectives “Classics Reconsidered”.
They trashed the CD reissue, stating that the balances were terrible, and weren’t all that enthusiastic about the performance. I hadn’t listened to it for a while so it made me listen to It again. The reviewers made it sound like the brass was up front and the strings coming from the back. I think what may have occurred is that the brass was given a slight volume boost relative to the lp, which I used to have but haven’t heard since I gave up my analog rig a few years back. I wonder who owns the rights to that recording; it was on Unicorn in the U.K. and Nonesuch in the States

I will have a look at the relevant information re the CD issue licenced to Brilliant Classics (it was this recording that prompted me to purchase the Brilliant Classics multi-orchestra/conductor set a good many years ago.
Ah, it merely says "© Unicorn-Kanchana Records, London. UK".

[jayne lee wilson]

I was surprised when Gramophone featured that recording a few months ago in one of their retrospectives “Classics Reconsidered”.
They trashed the CD reissue, stating that the balances were terrible, and weren’t all that enthusiastic about the performance. I hadn’t listened to it for a while so it made me listen to It again. The reviewers made it sound like the brass was up front and the strings coming from the back. I think what may have occurred is that the brass was given a slight volume boost relative to the lp, which I used to have but haven’t heard since I gave up my analog rig a few years back. I wonder who owns the rights to that recording; it was on Unicorn in the U.K. and Nonesuch in the States

They didn't "trash it", they considered it in very careful detail, as per usual Gramophone approach, taking the partly reprinted original review as the start.
Too long to quote at length here, but both LP and CD issues were listened to, with comments like "emaciated and backwardly balanced strings - this the engineering definitely not the playing! ....isolated, sometimes disturbingly spotlit winds..."

...making the important point that it has only ever had the one CD remastering, so poorly treated compared to Bernstein etc.......they also compare it to the 1961 radio tape of the Horenstein Mahler 3 (Pristine etc)...

But.... gorgeous sunny day! Garden beckons......

[Bryn]

They didn't "trash it", they considered it in very careful detail, as per usual Gramophone approach, taking the partly reprinted original review as the start.
Too long to quote at length here, but both LP and CD issues were listened to, with comments like "emaciated and backwardly balanced strings - this the engineering definitely not the playing! ....isolated, sometimes disturbingly spotlit winds..."

...making the important point that it has only ever had the one CD remastering, so poorly treated compared to Bernstein etc.......they also compare it to the 1961 radio tape of the Horenstein Mahler 3 (Pristine etc)...

But.... gorgeous sunny day! Garden beckons......

The CD release on the Unicorn-Kanchana label appears to date from 1988. That licenced to Brilliant Classics bears the legend ADD, suggesting a digital remix. Presumably, this was the same re-mix issued on the label it was licenced from.

[jayne lee wilson]

The CD release on the Unicorn-Kanchana label appears to date from 1988. That licenced to Brilliant Classics bears the legend ADD, suggesting a digital remix. Presumably, this was the same re-mix issued on the label it was licenced from.

Yes.....the above G quote goes on....."for much of the performance, the symphony resembles Schubert's Octet, and perhaps that says something true about the work itself which is often overlooked...."

Fascinating comment....
Incidentally, that 1961 3rd is on Qobuz (on Archipel) but I can't find the Unicorn/Brilliant one there..(yet...).

I'll take that coffee outside now and absorb the live-birdsong version.....

[Petrushka]

The CD release on the Unicorn-Kanchana label appears to date from 1988. That licenced to Brilliant Classics bears the legend ADD, suggesting a digital remix. Presumably, this was the same re-mix issued on the label it was licenced from.

This recording is also available on the Scribendum label in a box entitled 'The Art of Jascha Horenstein'.

The detail with the CDs says this: 'P-1969 Unicorn Records - P & C-1988 Unicorn-Kanchana Records. P & C 2014 Scribendum Ltd. Licensed from Treasure Island Music'.

I'm not sure how a 1970 recording can have a publication date of 1969! I'm also not sure if the above is indicating a 2014 re-mastering. I have to confess that I've not yet played it but my memory of the 1988 set, which I previously had, matches the Gramophone quote mentioned by JLW with the addition that the timpani are far too forwardly balanced while those cello and double bass outbursts in the first movement go for absolutely nothing and sound is if they are outside the hall.

I'll get round to playing the Scribendum set one fine day but I've never been that enthusiastic about the performance anyway given the sonic shortcomings. Bernstein in 1961 and Haitink in 1966, amongst earlier tapings, are both in a different league and much to be preferred.

[Lordgeous]

Music Web Int. was very enthusiastic about it. It was their Record of the Month at the time. I was knocked out by it on its first appearance on LP but haven't ever compared the CD issue - maybe I should. Not that many reviews that are SO enthusiastic - couple of quotes below.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Apr/Mahler_sy3_UKCD2006.htm

"The Unicorn recording was engineered by Bob Auger, who died at the end of 1998. His obituary in The Independent newspaper includes the comment: “One of his best recordings for Unicorn is widely regarded as Horenstein's Mahler Third, reputedly the first commercial multi-track Dolby A recording on one-inch tape.” I bought the Unicorn CDs many years ago and I’ve always thought that it offers very fine reproduction. The sound achieved by Auger is atmospheric, detailed and rich. The recording has a very wide dynamic range and conveys an abundance of detail. The percussion is excellently reported throughout, not least when playing quietly."

"Tony Duggan expressed the view that “This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down and I think it always will.” I agree wholeheartedly. John Quinn"

[jayne lee wilson]

Can anyone here try a CD issue on a decent system and tell us what they think? I thought I had the Unicorn but I can't find it....maybe I only ever thought about buying it, as the LP set was my first Mahler 3, the one that inspired the love...so I would tend to seek other readings beyond that....

[HighlandDougie]

Can anyone here try a CD issue on a decent system and tell us what they think? I thought I had the Unicorn but I can't find it....maybe I only ever thought about buying it, as the LP set was my first Mahler 3, the one that inspired the love...so I would tend to seek other readings beyond that....

I've retrieved the LPs from the attic and the CDs from the shelf so will compare later.

[CallMePaul]

I have the Unicorn LP issue of the Horenstein. It is a fine performance, but for me it is marred by the side-break in the first movement. I know that it is well over 30 minutes in length but other companies fitted it on one LP side at around the same time. I have not heard the CD version of this as my CD version is Litton/ Dallas SO, bought largely for Natalie Stutzmann's contribution (the best feature of a rather brash performance). If buying a recent version I would find it hard to choose between Fischer/ Budapest and Haitink/ Bavarian Radio SO.

[HighlandDougie]

I've retrieved the LPs from the attic and the CDs from the shelf so will compare later.

Selective listening to first, third and final movements. The LPs sound better than the CDs - and, no, it's not compensation bias, the sound is fuller and less recessed on vinyl. But the comments from the 'Gramophone' duo are an accurate description of the recording on either medium. The strings do indeed sound, "emaciated", and are not well balanced against, say, the brass or woodwind. Pet's comments about the lower strings sounding as if they were recorded outside the hall is not far from the mark. It is, though, still a very fine performance - and listening to it reminded me how much more satisfying it is than the Solti/LSO which it supplanted in my collection when released. I am not familiar with the acoustic signature of the recording venue (Fairfield Hall) so it's difficult to know whether it was instrumental placement which was to blame or - and more likely - Bob Auger experimenting with the-then very new Dolby equipment, multi-tracking and all. I suspect that some sensitive remastering using the original tapes might work wonders but, given the seeming opacity over who owns the rights to the recording, it seems unlikely, not least as Andrew Rose at Pristine, the likeliest candidate to do so, has already cleaned up and issued the 1961 live recording.

[richardfinegold]

Can anyone here try a CD issue on a decent system and tell us what they think? I thought I had the Unicorn but I can't find it....maybe I only ever thought about buying it, as the LP set was my first Mahler 3, the one that inspired the love...so I would tend to seek other readings beyond that....

I didn’t think the CD version on my system was as bad as the Gramophone represented. I was frankly a bit surprised by their judgement. The brass is more prominent than it should be. Until 5 years ago I owned both the lp and the CD and I never preferred the lp. The Haitink/CSO version recorded 30 years after the Horenstein is much worse, the whole acoustic on display dry as dust, absolutely not sounding like the actual venue...but I digress

[cloughie]

I didn’t think the CD version on my system was as bad as the Gramophone represented. I was frankly a bit surprised by their judgement. The brass is more prominent than it should be. Until 5 years ago I owned both the lp and the CD and I never preferred the lp. The Haitink/CSO version recorded 30 years after the Horenstein is much worse, the whole acoustic on display dry as dust, absolutely not sounding like the actual venue...but I digress

Not Mahler 3, forgive me for going slightly off topic, but I have the CSO Haitink Daphnis and Chloe which I found disappointingly dull.

[Lordgeous]

I didn’t think the CD version on my system was as bad as the Gramophone represented. I was frankly a bit surprised by their judgement. The brass is more prominent than it should be. Until 5 years ago I owned both the lp and the CD and I never preferred the lp. The Haitink/CSO version recorded 30 years after the Horenstein is much worse, the whole acoustic on display dry as dust, absolutely not sounding like the actual venue...but I digress

Surely Horenstein would have been at the mix session (multi to stereo) and approved the balance (as with every reecording I've produced). Anybody know? I don't know why but I feel the need to defend this wonderful performance; it made such an impact on me at it's release. I doubt very much they would have, or felt the need to, tinker with the balance or sound for the CD transfer, but it does happen!