BaL 1.10.22 - Brahms: Double Concerto in A minor

[Barbirollians]

Oh dear, I'm always seeming to have to react with "Disappointing" to recent BALs. Was Roger Parker the right choice of reviewer as it appears he didn't really think much to the piece? For me there was too much of the 'historic' choices and not enough of modern versions, which I should imagine is where most listeners interest would lie. I've had a number of LP versions in my library since my teens so I was interested in modern choices, especially since I recently had the task of 'rescueing' and preparing/mastering for CD release an amateur off-air recording of the 'Double' (along with the Beethoven 'Triple') from a 1973 BBC broadcast from Aldeburg, with Parikian, Bengtsson and the ECO under Del Mar - George Malcolm joining them for the Beethoven. As others have said, it's somewhat a favourite of mine, and I have absolutely no problems with early cadenzas and the generous length of the first movement, though the violin does generally seem to play 2nd fiddle (haha) to the cello. Only a few of the many available recordings got a brief mention and that was it! I'm really none the wiser of what to go out and buy, excepting the winner of course.

I thought Parker was a Verdi opera specialist. The piece cried out for Richard Osborne but perhaps too old and would not do twofers.

Liked the winner but not in top bracket.

I have also adapted now only listening to it on BBC Sounds after the event.

[richardfinegold]

Did Zimmerman, Schiff, Sawallisch get a nod? I see that it is download only now

[Mal]

Did Zimmerman, Schiff, Sawallisch get a nod? I see that it is download only now

No, their names were not mentioned at all.

[Mal]

Which? ...

Francescatti/Fournier/Walter and Oistrakh/Rostropovich/Szell were highly praised, so maybe he meant these. If the programme was longer, Andrew might have time to dig into these off the cuff responses and we'd learn a lot more!

The programme might have been tightened up by just playing one slow movement at the beginning. The three clips, after Casal's historical performance, all sounded great, but quite similar. If there was a significant difference, that I was missing, then they should have spelled it out. (I thought Francescatti/Fournier/Walter injected a bit more feeling & involvement...)

I liked the distinction they made between "vehement" and "autumnal" and it would have been useful to provide more examples of both. I think the two performances I know best are extreme examples of both categories - Kaler/Kliegel/Constantine (vehement) and Francescatti/Fournier/Walter (autumnal). There is danger here - last week listening to Kaler before Francescatti I think I sank the latter! But the latter showed up the lack of lycricism in the former!

Can a vehement performance overwhelm your critical faculties and damage your response to less vehement performances? Or does it just depend what mood you're in? My favourite Beethoven performers are at two extremes (Karajan, Walter...) and I choose which to play by the mood I'm in. I also don't play them back to back!

Another thing I liked about this BAL was that it restored my faith in Francescatti/Fournier/Walter, the couple of clips played were excellent and it made the final three.

[Mal]

Oistrakh/Fournier are superb especially in the slow movement...

I agree, but find Fournier even better with Walter. Capucons have much better sound. This is a problematic piece! Gramophone and Penguin doesn't give any performance a Gem or a Rosette. Waiting for a seminal performance? But if Bell and Isserlis can't get it together, who can? Their album is called "For The Love Of Brahms", which indicates some Victor Meldrew like frustration!

[Lordgeous]

I forgot to mention the ridiculous 'up front' perspective of the soloists in many of the excerpts played; an FF from the 80 peice orchestra followed by an even louder decibel level from the soloist(s). I recall one famous soloist remarking that his 'followers' were only interested in hearing every wonderful note he played (or words to that effect). I'm sure somebody here will recall who I'm talking about?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I forgot to mention the ridiculous 'up front' perspective of the soloists in many of the excerpts played; an FF from the 80 peice orchestra followed by an even louder decibel level from the soloist(s). I recall one famous soloist remarking that his 'followers' were only interested in hearing every wonderful note he played (or words to that effect). I'm sure somebody here will recall who I'm talking about?

That sounds like a Perlman comment. There may sometimes be a case for very slightly helping a soloist on an audio recording, if only to compensate for the lack of visual stimulation. Decca, in the John Culshaw era, showed us that it could be done. However, over the years Decca too has succumbed to some extent to the artificial miking of soloists.

[Lordgeous]

I think it was a famous pianist who, when asked about the ridiculous balance in some of his concerto recordings, said that his fans only wanted to hear HIM and weren't bothered about the orchestra! I think he was of such stature, or sold so many records, producers couldn't change his mind!

[mikealdren]

I forgot to mention the ridiculous 'up front' perspective of the soloists in many of the excerpts played; an FF from the 80 peice orchestra followed by an even louder decibel level from the soloist(s). I recall one famous soloist remarking that his 'followers' were only interested in hearing every wonderful note he played (or words to that effect). I'm sure somebody here will recall who I'm talking about?

I completely agree and had meant to mention it, I particularly noticed it in the last Francescatti/Fournier excerpt.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think it was a famous pianist who, when asked about the ridiculous balance in some of his concerto recordings, said that his fans only wanted to hear HIM and weren't bothered about the orchestra! I think he was of such stature, or sold so many records, producers couldn't change his mind!

Arthur Rubinstein?

[smittims]

In 'Putting the record straight' John Culshaw recalled recording Rubinstein in a Mozart concerto , one of many Decca recordings made on behalf of RCA Victor, and Rubinstein pleaded with him to give him a forward balance. I think this stemmed from 78 days when soloists were often given artificial prominence.

[Mal]

I completely agree and had meant to mention it, I particularly noticed it in the last Francescatti/Fournier excerpt.

Interesting. This is probably why I wasn't too happy with it on listening to the complete performance on CD - "underpowered orchestra", I thought, maybe "soloists too up front" is a better explanation. But do Francescatti or Fournier have a "reputation"? Was it an over-eager marketing ececutive at fault? Why did Walter allow it? Did the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, not being a permanent outfit, perhaps not defend their position enough?

[Nick Armstrong]

No reaction again. Perhaps it’s the start time.

Not in my case, it’s been years since I listened live so I don’t care about the start time. It’s because the two pieces covered so far have never done anything for me (weirdly in the case of the Brahms, given my love of most of his work) - and neither BAL did anything to win me round…

[Barbirollians]

Not in my case, it’s been years since I listened live so I don’t care about the start time. It’s because the two pieces covered so far have never done anything for me (weirdly in the case of the Brahms, given my love of most of his work) - and neither BAL did anything to win me round…

I have taken delivery of the winner today and it’s very fine . The first movement strikes me as most successful , the finale seems sometimes too much like chamber music to my ears rather losing momentum but I like the lightness of texture throughout reminding of some of the more successful smaller orchestra accounts of the symphonies I have heard . The slow movement is fine if not touching the heart like Oistrakh /Fournier - for example .

It’s a shame no live accounts have come to light of Zukerman/du Pre playing the piece ( apparently Barenboim thought she particularly shone in it ) sadly I think it was a disastrous performance with Bernstein in New York in 1973 that ended her career.