What Classical Music Are You listening to Now? III

[Mandryka]

Not that of course. By "outside history" I probably should have said "taking an objective view of history", stripping away received notions of melody/harmony/structure etc. so as to be able eventually to rediscover them as if for the first time. Comparably maybe (in a very small way!) to the invention of set theory at a certain point in history (as an outgrowth of certain current ideas and developments) in order to function as an axiomatic basis for mathematics, while of course mathematics had already been existing and evolving without it for thousands of years.

And am I right to think that in your opinion the concept which led to a re-presentation of the discipline in a particularly fruitful way was Total Serialism? Very interesting.

[Richard Barrett]

And am I right to think that in your opinion the concept which led to a re-presentation of the discipline in a particularly fruitful way was Total Serialism?

Together with other kinds of systematic compositional strategies, plus electronic technology, free improvisation and a sense of geographic and historical relativism, yes. While "total serialism" (a bit of a misnomer since there are actually very few compositions that are "totally" serialised!) is a set of technical procedures rather than a style, it threw out new musical possibilities that could then be explored using less hermetic means.

[Mandryka]

Together with other kinds of systematic compositional strategies, plus electronic technology, free improvisation and a sense of geographic and historical relativism, yes. While "total serialism" (a bit of a misnomer since there are actually very few compositions that are "totally" serialised!) is a set of technical procedures rather than a style, it threw out new musical possibilities that could then be explored using less hermetic means.

In that case maybe the analogy is not with set theory, but with Marxism or the enlightenment. That's to say, the stripping away of presuppositions which are revealed to be unfounded dogmas. Presuppositions like: only certain sounds are musical, only certain harmonies are musical, only certain people can create music, only certain regions have an advanced, high quality, musical tradition. And so, back to what started this off -- the concept of a music with no history.

Thanks Richard, this has been a helpful discussion for me.

[jayne lee wilson]

.....so all the Robin Holloway puts me in mind of.........

Martinu Piano Concerto No.4 "Incantation".
Robert Kolinsky/Basel SO/Ashkenazy. Ondine CD.

Szymanowski Symphony No.4 "Symphonie Concertante".
Lortie/BBCSO/Gardner. Chandos SACD.

[DracoM]

<< the old Regensburg version on Archiv under Hans-Martin Schneidt. >>
Ref Monteverdi 1610 Vespers
Yes, just been listening to that Regensburg version. It's far more dramatic, more theatrical, better stereo, but above all its fantastic soloists: Partridge, Elwes, Esswood, Thomas plus various unnamed Domspatzen.

[Dave2002]

Listening/watching Emmanuel Ax about playing Chopin - https://youtu.be/jl6xRn7NgZk

Worth trying.

[Mandryka]

While "total serialism" (a bit of a misnomer since there are actually very few compositions that are "totally" serialised!) is a set of technical procedures rather than a style, it threw out new musical possibilities that could then be explored using less hermetic means.

So is there a word for the compositional method which Stockhausen used in, for example, Mantra? If it's not referred to as total serialism, what is the term?

[LMcD]

Brahms Opus 115 (Werner Haas/Members of the Berlin Philharmonic Octet)
Dvorak Opus 81 (Peter Frankl/Lindsay String Quartet)

[Joseph K]

So is there a word for the compositional method which Stockhausen used in, for example, Mantra? If it's not referred to as total serialism, what is the term?

I think that one's still total serialism, just used in a different way, to different stylistic ends than previous pieces of Stockhausen - 'Formula Composition', I think.

Now Spinning: Holloway - Third Concerto for Orchestra

[BBMmk2]

Today’s dip, into the recorded legacy of recordings celebrating Maestro Riccardo Muti’s 80th Birthday.

Mendelssohn
Symphonies
No.3 in A minor, Op.55 ‘Scottish’
No.5 in D major, Op.107 ‘Reformation’
No.4 in A major, Op.90 ‘Italian’
Calm Se & Prosperous Voyage, Op.27
(New Philharmonia Orchestra,
Riccardo Muti)
Liszt
Les Préludes
(Philadelphia Orchestra
Riccardo Muti)

Prokofiev
Romeo & Juliet Suites Nos.1 & 2
Sinfonietta, Op.48
Ivan The Terrible, Op.116
(Concert Oratorio, ed. Stasssvich)
Irina Arkhipov (mezzo-soprano)
Anatoly Mokrenko (baritone)
Boris Morgunov (narrator)
John McCarthy (director)
Ambrosian Singers
Philharmonia Orchestra
Riccardo Muti).

[visualnickmos]

Brahms Opus 115 (Werner Haas/Members of the Berlin Philharmonic Octet)
Dvorak Opus 81 (Peter Frankl/Lindsay String Quartet)

What are the titles, please? The Op nos mean nothing to me. Thank you.

[Bryn]

What are the titles, please? The Op nos mean nothing to me. Thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarinet_Quintet_%28Brahms%29

The late Brian Dennis used to assert that this work offered the best representation of projectile vomiting in the whole classical repertoire.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think that one's still total serialism, just used in a different way, to different stylistic ends than previous pieces of Stockhausen - 'Formula Composition', I think.

Not "moment form"? - the term he began using around the time of "Kontakte" to distinguish its procedure from "point form" as used in earlier works, but I should probably check.

[Joseph K]

Not "moment form"? - the term he began using around the time of "Kontakte" to distinguish its procedure from "point form" as used in earlier works, but I should probably check.

No - Mantra is a bit later than that. It's based on a melody or 'formula':

[Serial_Apologist]

Early music by André Jolivet rarely if ever heard on Radio 3, for those interested in byways that shouldn't be byways of 20th century composition:

The early Adagio for Strings from 1934 in a performance by a courageous young Tel Aviv orchestra, though one might long for more precision. Still you get a good idea of the sort of music AJ was composing at the time - arguably closer to Berg than anyone else I can compare it with for that period than would be the case later on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7LeK8wgBPU

And the Mana Suite from one year later. Jolivet's music from this period has been criticised for being opaque and harmonically inert, yet from listening to Mana the strong influence, coming from his teacher Varèse, and to be directly exerted on Messiaen's piano music from the late 1940s, the period that included the two Iles de feu and Cantéyodjaya, cannot be denied:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvv-1NVtExU

More to follow!