Pedants' Paradise

[vinteuil]

".

One thing (ahem) he never made clear was when the possessive use of apostrophe s was permitted, following noun or name endings with "s". I'd be grateful indeed for some guidance on this. E.g. "Bernard Stevens' Mass was composed while he was still a student"; or, "Bernard Stevens's Mass was.. " etc.

S-A

A reading of Hart's Rules for Compositors and Readers at the University Press Oxford suggests the following -

"Use 's for the possessive case in English names and surnames whenever possible; ie in all monosyllables and disyllables and in longer words accented on the penult, as:
Charles's, Cousins's, Gustavus's, Hicks's, St James's Square, Jones's, Thomas's, Zacharias's
In longer names not accented on the penult, 's is also preferable, though ' is here admissible; eg Theophilus'.

But poets in all these cases sometimes use s' only; and Jesus' is an accepted liturgical archaism.

In ancient classical names use s' (not s's): Mars', Venus', Herodotus'. This is the prevailing custom in classical works.

Likewise ancient names in -es are usually written -es' in the possessive:
Ceres' rites; Xerxes' fleet.
This form should certainly be used in words longer than two syllables:
Arbaces', Cervantes', Miltiades', Themistocles'.

etc... "

[Serial_Apologist]

A reading of Hart's Rules for Compositors and Readers at the University Press Oxford suggests the following -

"Use 's for the possessive case in English names and surnames whenever possible; ie in all monosyllables and disyllables and in longer words accented on the penult, as:
Charles's, Cousins's, Gustavus's, Hicks's, St James's Square, Jones's, Thomas's, Zacharias's
In longer names not accented on the penult, 's is also preferable, though ' is here admissible; eg Theophilus'.

But poets in all these cases sometimes use s' only; and Jesus' is an accepted liturgical archaism.

In ancient classical names use s' (not s's): Mars', Venus', Herodotus'. This is the prevailing custom in classical works.

Likewise ancient names in -es are usually written -es' in the possessive:
Ceres' rites; Xerxes' fleet.
This form should certainly be used in words longer than two syllables:
Arbaces', Cervantes', Miltiades', Themistocles'.

etc... "

This helps, somewhat. Thanks v much, vints and pabs!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

While I agree with Alpensinfonie here - as this is the Pedants' Corner - I wd point out that St Augustine [born 13 November 354; died 28 August 430] was not writing in "the middle ages"...

You are quite right. Though when the "middle ages" began is a moot point. The Roman Empire did not end completely with the ransacking of Rome, for the Eastern Empire continued in Byzantium until its fall in 1453, which itself helped to precipitate the Rennaissance. So perhaps the "middle ages" was only a regional characteristic affecting western Europe.

[jean]

...Though when the "middle ages" began is a moot point...

And must depend to a large extent on whether one wants to recognise any Dark Ages or not.

Modern scholarship tends not to.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And must depend to a large extent on whether one wants to recognise any Dark Ages or not.

Modern scholarship tends not to.

That's the point I was making, in a pedantic sort of way.

[french frank]

And must depend to a large extent on whether one wants to recognise any Dark Ages or not.

Modern scholarship tends not to.

I would use it as referring to the period, post Roman Empire, for which historical records are few and doubtfully reliable. There is the quote at the bottom of that Wiki article querying the term 'Middle Ages' too ...

[mangerton]

I have just had to cancel a proposed deal. In my letter I wrote:-

'I apologise for the inconvenience ... .' as it would not seem to me to be a proper apology had I said
'... any inconvenience ...'
or
'... if I have caused any ... '

These ifs and anys are commonplace in newspaper apologies accompanying recalls for faulty equipment, for example, and have become widespread. If an apology is owed, don't qualify it!

However, in these blame and claim days it may be that caution is necessary.

How do others feel about this?

I agree. Just get on with it. "I'm sorry, but....." is a very poor substitute for "I'm sorry".

Similarly, speakers who start "I would like to thank....." . A simple "Thank you" is fine.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When people write without punctuation and capital letters, the essence of what they say is more difficult to grasp. It may well be comprehensible, but it isn't half hard work at times.

[teamsaint]

And must depend to a large extent on whether one wants to recognise any Dark Ages or not.

Modern scholarship tends not to.

Do you know much about the historiography of the "Dark Ages" , Jean ?
I am currently interested in the way that they are viewed, and possibly their relationship to the end of the Roman Empire and later empires such as the Normans. (In a rather amateur"30 years since my BA" kind of a way).
If you know anything, and could point me towards some decent material, I would be very grateful.
If I have used "historiography" incorrectly, then I apologise. Not a good thread on which to get things wrong !

[jean]

I'm afraid I only have this very much at second hand, teamsaint. I'm no kind of expert.

I was interested to hear Bettany Hughes observe in her Divine Women programme that the formidable female learning she focussed on (odd though some of her choices were) all took place during the so-called Dark Ages.

Talking of St Hilda, she said there was probably as much intellectual activity among nuns as among monks - and then the universities were founded, and that was the end of it, as far as women were concerned, until about 1910.

[scottycelt]

I agree. Just get on with it. "I'm sorry, but....." is a very poor substitute for "I'm sorry".

Similarly, speakers who start "I would like to thank....." . A simple "Thank you" is fine.

Or the Braggart posing as Modesty itself who utters ... 'I would like to think ... '

I love these gentle understatements so common and popular in England, such as ... 'the missus won't be best pleased' ... or, a company spokesperson during a damaging selling scandal ... 'in the light of these disclosures, all relevant staff have now been sent for further training'.

[teamsaint]

I'm afraid I only have this very much at second hand, teamsaint. I'm no kind of expert.

I was interested to hear Bettany Hughes observe in her Divine Women programme that the formidable female learning she focussed on (odd though some of her choices were) all took place during the so-called Dark Ages.

Talking of St Hilda, she said there was probably as much intellectual activity among nuns as among monks - and then the universities were founded, and that was the end of it, as far as women were concerned, until about 1910.

That is really very interesting, and just the sort of thing I am looking for.

I will have to do my own research for reading matter I think, but thanks for the response. You have to be very careful with history , that much I do know !

[ahinton]

That is really very interesting, and just the sort of thing I am looking for.

I will have to do my own research for reading matter I think, but thanks for the response. You have to be very careful with history , that much I do know !

Indeed - especially when creating it!

[teamsaint]

[french frank]

the historiography of the "Dark Ages"

Obviously, it will be different for the various regions/countries of Europe. An assortment of texts are studied which show how standards in Classical Latin were affected by popular forms. (Bishop) Gregory of Tours wrote a history in the 6th century - in Latin but he apologised that he hadn't been properly instructed in grammar. The important thing, though, is that works were written, and that they are comprehensible.

Unfortunately, 'historiography' wasn't necessarily seen as offering truthful accounts, although it's often emphasised by the author that they are. There are gaps, obscurities and contradictions which make it difficult to piece together a picture with any degree of detail. My field was in tracing back the historical origins of the legend of Arthur, and in spite of surviving material (Gildas, Nennius, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and the 'mendacious' Geoffrey of Monmouth) the versions of 'history' differ wildly and much is theory and speculation. It's a matter of studying all the sources and finding how far they agree with each other, or whether one was simply getting its information from an earlier text.