Pedants' Paradise

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've been wondering about this...

I wouldn't worry too much about the grammar.

Then why are you worrying about it?

[french frank]

I've been wondering about this.

It sounds awkward to me, though I know each edition of The Early Music Show is a discrete entity and therefore countable.

I would argue that TEMS is not a plural. The 'S' stands for Show. Ergo one show fewer per week. What's the problem?

[jean]

Then why are you worrying about it?

I'm not.

I'm wondering, which is not quite the same thing.

But if you miss out the central part of my post, what's left doesn't really make sense.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But if you miss out the central part of my post, what's left doesn't really make sense.

It's Alpie - he never repeats the exposition!

[amateur51]

It's Alpie - he never repeats the exposition!

[jean]

I would argue that TEMS is not a plural. The 'S' stands for Show. Ergo one show fewer per week. What's the problem?

It just sounds slightly unnatural to me!

In a similar (I think) case, I'd always say that's one less thing to worry about in preference to one fewer..., though thing is also singular and countable.

[Serial_Apologist]

I would argue that TEMS is not a plural. The 'S' stands for Show. Ergo one show fewer per week. What's the problem?

Not being allowed to queue up at the cigarette counter...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's Alpie - he never repeats the exposition!

[Pabmusic]

I've been wondering about this.

It sounds awkward to me, though I know each edition of The Early Music Show is a discrete entity and therefore countable.

But I find I really want to say One less TEMS. I think I'm going to try to justify it by regarding less there as an adverb.

Someone at R3 might well want to comment What's one EMS more or less? and though I'd deplore the sentiment, I wouldn't worry too much about the grammar.

I would recast the phrase as 'one fewer TEMS', so that 'one' more clearly qualifies 'fewer'.

However, if we are treating TEMS as a word in itself, then I'm not sure there's any longer a need for capitals beyond the first. If we're not so treating it, then it's just a series of initials and the definite article perhaps ought to be accounted for ("one fewer [edition of] TEMS", "one fewer [edition of] The Early Music Show").

[jean]

I think that if we use the initial letters of anything as a pronouncable acronym, we tend to use capitals when we write it.

We also tend not to keep the definite article. I'd seen WATO written several times before I realised it was The World at One.

Whether early music buffs regularly use EMS as a word in its own right, I couldn't say. They don't in my neck of the woods!

I still lean towards an adverbial explanation of the less, or perhaps the whole phrase one less, that I want to use in this context. I see a difference between There'll be fewer EMSs/TEMSs in future and There'll be one less TEMS...

I would recast the phrase as 'one fewer TEMS', so that 'one' more clearly qualifies 'fewer'.

But isn't it what the fewer qualifies that establishes whether it really needs to be fewer or not, rather than what qualifies it?

[french frank]

But isn't it what the fewer qualifies that establishes whether it really needs to be fewer or not, rather than what qualifies it?

Statement: "There will be one fewer as from the end of the month."

Question: "One what fewer?" or "One fewer what?"

Would you say, "There will be one less as from the end of the month?"

[jean]

Would you say, "There will be one less as from the end of the month?"

Yes I would. I'm just trying to give myself a satisfactory explanation.

Probably the expression more or less interferes - and of course more is never a problem, as it's the same for countables and uncountables.

Cf my imagined R3 person's comment - 'What's one EMS more or less?'

[french frank]

Yes I would. I'm just trying to give myself a satisfactory explanation.

Are we back in the supermarket - Less than 10 items > Fewer than 10 items?

[jean]

I was wondering about that, too.

Cashier: 'You've got too many items there. You need fewer items.'

Customer (who can't count|) 'How many fewer?'

Cashier: (who can) 'One (or whatever) fewer.'

(They've nearly all gone over to baskets only instead now. And there's always the self-service option.)

[Pabmusic]

I think that if we use the initial letters of anything as a pronouncable acronym, we tend to use capitals when we write it...
But isn't it what the fewer qualifies that establishes whether it really needs to be fewer or not, rather than what qualifies it?

It depends on how well established the acronym is. Nato, radar and sonar, for instance, are perfectly acceptable.

As far as 'fewer' is concerned, the rule as I understand it is that it's 'fewer' when dealing with discrete articles (I've bought fewer CDs this year than last) but 'less' when dealing with quantities that have a singular, collective nature. "I'll have less sugar in that tea, please" but "this spoon picks up fewer grains of sugar than that one does". I also recall that more than one authority says there's no justification for the distinction - it's just a convention.