Lighter Music at the Proms

[french frank]

I don’t think Broadway musicals , jazz or film music will be considered the “greatest contribution to classical music in the 20th century” - I’m not even sure that most of those genres are classical music or whether their very talented exponents would it wish to be considered as classical music .

My premise was that in 50 or 100 years time people will view such genres very differently in context from the way we do, and that film music, for example, might be seen as the mainstream development from orchestral music such as RVW's, Prokofiev's, even some of Stravinsky's, and others (Sibelius?). Operetta leading on to Broadway? Even if they weren't actually described as 'classical music', they would be considered the 'dominant' music of the time: baroque > classical 'proper' > romantic > ??? - all strung together loosely as 'classical music' or whatever the chosen description was. All left behind by the divergent development from post-war pop, to become another sort of pop.

[Serial_Apologist]

My premise was that in 50 or 100 years time people will view such genres very differently in context from the way we do, and that film music, for example, might be seen as the mainstream development from orchestral music such as RVW's, Prokofiev's, even some of Stravinsky's, and others (Sibelius?). Operetta leading on to Broadway? Even if they weren't actually described as 'classical music', they would be considered the 'dominant' music of the time: baroque > classical 'proper' > romantic > ??? - all strung together loosely as 'classical music' or whatever the chosen description was. All left behind by the divergent development from post-war pop, to become another sort of pop.

But only an apologist for what capitalism has ended up doing to the cultural treasures of history would see that as being a good thing. Which is why we have to keep banging on about the degeneration of Radio 3, now under compliant management fast becoming one of late capitalism's cultural alibis.

[french frank]

But only an apologist for what capitalism has ended up doing to the cultural treasures of history would see that as being a good thing. Which is why we have to keep banging on about the degeneration of Radio 3, now under compliant management fast becoming one of late capitalism's cultural alibis.

To be clear: I don't see it as a good thing! I remember one of the old BBC messageboarders (who I suspect is still among us) saying to us (FoR3): "You may have all the arguments, but it won't do you any good." I always treasured that as being a) true and b) not a reason to stop making the arguments. I still do so, but not with any expectation of success.

[Ein Heldenleben]

My premise was that in 50 or 100 years time people will view such genres very differently in context from the way we do, and that film music, for example, might be seen as the mainstream development from orchestral music such as RVW's, Prokofiev's, even some of Stravinsky's, and others (Sibelius?). Operetta leading on to Broadway? Even if they weren't actually described as 'classical music', they would be considered the 'dominant' music of the time: baroque > classical 'proper' > romantic > ??? - all strung together loosely as 'classical music' or whatever the chosen description was. All left behind by the divergent development from post-war pop, to become another sort of pop.

The dominant genre of the 20th century in terms of sales , performances and general ubiquitousness surely will be rock and pop - a synthesis of blues, music hall , Broadway and American country music . The dominant genre of the 21st century so far is that broadly called Urban - rap , garage . There are individual rap artists with incomes as big as all UK classical incomes put together ( if you believe those wealth sites). Classical music isn’t so much niche as borderline non existent - kept alive largely by public subsidy and artists prepared to work for ridiculously low incomes.

[french frank]

The dominant genre of the 20th century in terms of sales , performances and general ubiquitousness surely will be rock and pop - a synthesis of blues, music hall , Broadway and American country music . The dominant genre of the 21st century so far is that broadly called Urban - rap , garage . There are individual rap artists with incomes as big as all UK classical incomes put together ( if you believe those wealth sites). Classical music isn’t so much niche as borderline non existent - kept alive largely by public subsidy and artists prepared to work for ridiculously low incomes.

Agree again. When I said, 'All left behind by the divergent development from post-war pop, to become another sort of pop' I was conjecturing that the broad(er) 'classical strand' would be looked on as historical anyway. The post-war pop (rap, hiphop, urban) strand would evolve and fragment too.

[gradus]

A quietly important (imv) musical genre is completely ignored by the Proms, namely the the music of people like Eric Coates, Leroy Anderson, Ron Goodwin, Robert Farnon and the many fine principally orchestral composers whose scores were at one time one of the mainstays of British broadcasting. Perhaps John Wilson might oblige in a future season?

[french frank]

A quietly important (imv) musical genre is completely ignored by the Proms, namely the the music of people like Eric Coates, Leroy Anderson, Ron Goodwin, Robert Farnon and the many fine principally orchestral composers whose scores were at one time one of the mainstays of British broadcasting. Perhaps John Wilson might oblige in a future season?

Yes, it's hard to understand why blockbuster film scores by the big names are acceptable but … oh, wait …

[Ein Heldenleben]

A quietly important (imv) musical genre is completely ignored by the Proms, namely the the music of people like Eric Coates, Leroy Anderson, Ron Goodwin, Robert Farnon and the many fine principally orchestral composers whose scores were at one time one of the mainstays of British broadcasting. Perhaps John Wilson might oblige in a future season?

Couldn’t agree more - funny thing is they are quite regularly played on Essential Classics and In Tune along with Ronald Binge and Geoffrey Burgon . So I don’t think there is a prejudice against them.

[pastoralguy]

Speaking a a violinist who has played all the Bruckner symphonies and all the great Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, I wouldn’t trade a bar of R&H for all the symphonies of the great ‘Master!’

So there!

[Alison]

A quietly important (imv) musical genre is completely ignored by the Proms, namely the the music of people like Eric Coates, Leroy Anderson, Ron Goodwin, Robert Farnon and the many fine principally orchestral composers whose scores were at one time one of the mainstays of British broadcasting. Perhaps John Wilson might oblige in a future season?

Very much in the classical sphere I agree.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Speaking a a violinist who has played all the Bruckner symphonies and all the great Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, I wouldn’t trade a bar of R&H for all the symphonies of the great ‘Master!’

So there!

As a matter of interest does Bruckner write better for the violin than Richard Rodgers ? He had a reputation of being a good orchestrator but maybe like Bernstein he got a Broadway specialist to do it.

[hmvman]

A quietly important (imv) musical genre is completely ignored by the Proms, namely the the music of people like Eric Coates, Leroy Anderson, Ron Goodwin, Robert Farnon and the many fine principally orchestral composers whose scores were at one time one of the mainstays of British broadcasting. Perhaps John Wilson might oblige in a future season?

Agreed. Even if it were a late-night Prom it would be something. I recall that a few years ago R3 ran a season dedicated to 'light music' called 'The Light Fantastic'. There was a discussion with a lot of hand-wringing over why this marvellous music wasn't heard more. I thought, "well, it's in your gift, BBC, to give us more of this marvellous music, much of which was commissioned by you, but you don't."

[Ein Heldenleben]

Just compared the 2019 Proms with the 1987 (picked at random as an example of what might be percieved as a typical old style season)

2019 had 75 numbered Proms of which 12 were either pop music , non classical film music , world music , Broadway etc. There were also 8 Cadogan chamber Proms.

1987 had 66 numbered concerts of which only two were “lighter” . A Sullivan / Strauss night on the second night (precisely what some forumites are calling for in fact!) and a Django Bates late night prom. There was a surprising amount of contemporary music with quite a bit of Birtwistle programmed (anniversary? ) . Other highlights Act3 Parsifal with Goodall and something we never hear now but should the Black Dyke Mills band with a classical programme . ( dare I say levelling up ? )

A quick scan indicates to me that the programming in 87 was more demanding and recondite though as I suspected the total volume of classical music in 2019 was higher - there are just more concerts.