BaL 13.04.24 - Brahms: Symphony 3

[makropulos]

Putting my performance practice detective hat on, I’m fairly confident that that tradition set in very early indeed, or at least that the temptation to do a crescendo was recognised very early on given that the Meiningen book bothers to say not to do it!

Completely agree with you!

[Ein Heldenleben]

It is very interesting to read Blume's book on Steinbach and the Meiningen tradition – and readers who don't have German will find an English translation here:

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/handle/1773/15510

Click on the View/Open link on the left of the page and a downloadable PDF of the whole thing is there.

As for the specific issue of putting a crescendo in the opening bars, I agree that it goes contrary to Brahms's explicit markings. Furtwängler, Knappertsbusch and generations thereafter have chosen to ignore what JBr asks for and it's most annoying. When Mackerras did the Third Symphony live with the Philharmonia in 2008, he didn't put in a crescendo, and the whole thing is much more convincing as a result than what we hear on the SCO recording (though there's plenty to enjoy there). Unfortunately, the Philharmonia performance was recorded but never released (though I have a copy).

One other thing. In the old complete edition (and therefore the Dover score), the opening chords are notated as dotted semibreves. In the original edition (and Brahms's MS) they are pairs of tied dotted minims. Of course they sound exactly the same, but psychologically (for the conductor and players), Brahms's original notation has an implication of a pulse on the half bar – of momentum – which isn't there otherwise. I think that's important for launching the movement.

Very interesting. In my Schirmer piano reduction they are dotted semibreves but as on the piano all you do is play the chord and waggle a pedal I guess it doesn’t matter that much ! I wonder how fast Allegro Con Brio is? Something tells me that it was faster 140 years ago .

[Pulcinella]

...

One other thing. In the old complete edition (and therefore the Dover score), the opening chords are notated as dotted semibreves. In the original edition (and Brahms's MS) they are pairs of tied dotted minims. Of course they sound exactly the same, but psychologically (for the conductor and players), Brahms's original notation has an implication of a pulse on the half bar – of momentum – which isn't there otherwise. I think that's important for launching the movement.

And reinforcement (as in a reminder) that the time signature is 6/4 not 3/2, presumably.

[oliver sudden]

And reinforcement (as in a reminder) that the time signature is 6/4 not 3/2, presumably.

I think if they’ve forgotten that by bar 2 then someone has a problem which renotation isn’t going to fix completely.

Does anyone know when this was changed? It seems a pretty serious intervention if it’s purely editorial…

[makropulos]

I think if they’ve forgotten that by bar 2 then someone has a problem which renotation isn’t going to fix completely.

Does anyone know when this was changed? It seems a pretty serious intervention if it’s purely editorial…

It was editorial - Hans Gál when he edited the symphs for the first Brahms complete edition. All fixed in the new Henle one.

[oliver sudden]

It was editorial - Hans Gál when he edited the symphs for the first Brahms complete edition. All fixed in the new Henle one.

I am clearly going to have to listen to more of Gál’s actual compositions to compensate for the fact that my opinion of him as an editor of Brahms symphonies just went through the floor.

(Although I must say that the dotted-minim notation does for me make the hint of a crescendo in the second bar just that little bit more justifiable )

[Barbirollians]

Boult seems forgotten in this symphony - both his HMV recording and even more so the ICA Classics live recording are marvellous.

[Goon525]

Boult seems forgotten in this symphony - both his HMV recording and even more so the ICA Classics live recording are marvellous.

Boult’s 4th, coupled with the AFO, was the first full price LP I bought when it came out. I even duplicated it by buying the set when it was issued later. (Curious that 3 was with the LSO, the others all with the LPO. At least arguably, Haitink’s LPO was a better Brahms orchestra at the time than Previn’s LSO.) I thought then, and still do, that Boult’s talents lent themselves very well to Brahms.

[makropulos]

Boult seems forgotten in this symphony - both his HMV recording and even more so the ICA Classics live recording are marvellous.

Not forgotten by me!

[Pulcinella]

Boult seems forgotten in this symphony - both his HMV recording and even more so the ICA Classics live recording are marvellous.

Not forgotten here either.
Boult's EMI Brahms 2 was my constant listening when I studied it for A level (I know Alpie did the same exam; I wonder which recording he had).
Bought the set on CD (three separate HVM issues); I see the recordings are still available (says licensed from EMI):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Symphonies-Johannes/dp/B000026BS8/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Not forgotten here either.
Boult's EMI Brahms 2 was my constant listening when I studied it for A level (I know Alpie did the same exam; I wonder which recording he had).

I had the VPO/ Kertesz. It was one of the rare times I bought a full price LP. I was quite pleased (at the time) that it included the exposition repeat in the first movement, but a little disappointed that there was a hint of wow for around a second, in the finale (not the case in the CD version).

[smittims]

Whenever I hear the Boult HMV recording (he had done them all earlier for Nixa) I'm reminded that it was made in spare time at the end of some Elgar/VW sessions with the LSO. Sir Adrian was asked what he would like to record! How one would love to have been there, and suggest some Boult rarity; but, perhaps wisely, he chose something that didn't need a lot of rehearsal, and this led to the other three being done with the LPO.

[oliver sudden]

Is anyone else a particular fan of the 1949 Furtwängler? My tastes in most things are very much in the historically informed / hysterically misinformed direction but I must admit I spin that one probably twice as often as all the others on my shelves put together…

(And that one has the exposition repeat, so, win.)

[cloughie]

Whenever I hear the Boult HMV recording (he had done them all earlier for Nixa) I'm reminded that it was made in spare time at the end of some Elgar/VW sessions with the LSO. Sir Adrian was asked what he would like to record! How one would love to have been there, and suggest some Boult rarity; but, perhaps wisely, he chose something that didn't need a lot of rehearsal, and this led to the other three being done with the LPO.

They got very good reviews at the time, as did the 3rd.

[richardfinegold]

Very interesting. In my Schirmer piano reduction they are dotted semibreves but as on the piano all you do is play the chord and waggle a pedal I guess it doesn’t matter that much ! I wonder how fast Allegro Con Brio is? Something tells me that it was faster 140 years ago .

I laughed out loud on that. Yes, the sustain pedal makes life easier. Someone should invent something like it for string players