Pedants' Paradise

[kea]

I wouldn't do that - it was or rather than and in that case!

heh. As a child raised by books, I've always had problems figuring out how to pronounce words I've only ever seen written down. Took me ages to figure out "ethereal" for instance. Very well, I will not start saying "discret" after all, thanks for the advance warning

[jean]

Different from 'hommidge'?

I don't detect a difference in pronunciation between homidge and hommidge, really.

I was thinking of the difference between hom(m)idge (ˈhɒmɪdʒ) and omage (ɒˈmɑːʒ)

[Pabmusic]

I don't detect a difference in pronunciation between homidge and hommidge, really.

I was thinking of the difference between hom(m)idge (ˈhɒmɪdʒ) and omage (ɒˈmɑːʒ)

Fine. It's the emm that makes the difference. I must have missed the more recent meaning (ɒˈmɑːʒ). What is it?

There;s only one thing I can say.

Quel domage.

[jean]

Under homage,The OED has this:

3. a. In extended use: acknowledgement of superiority in respect of rank, worth, beauty, or some other quality; reverence, dutiful respect, or honour shown to someone or something; an instance or expression of this. Freq. in to pay homage...

b. spec. A work of art or entertainment which incorporates elements of style or content characteristic of another work, artist, or genre, as a means of paying affectionate tribute. Also: an instance of such tribute within a work of art or entertainment.

It's the second, more specific meaning which people sometimes pronounce in the French way, which the OED acknowledges. More recently, and after the article was written, people have begun to give it the French spelling too, with an extra m.

I mentioned it as having happened earlier than I'd thought.

.

[gurnemanz]

As it's French rather than Italian in origin, I can't see why anyone would not pronounce it as a monosyllable!

The OED says:

Pronunciation: ( /ˈfɔːti/ , /ˈfɔːteɪ/ , formerly /fɔːt/ )

Etymology: < French fort, absolute use of fort strong

Sorry to be a bit slow but still catching up on "forte". I now realise my ignorance, having always assumed that both meanings had the same derivation. The OED fencing etymology is quite interesting:

forte
1 Fencing. The stronger part of a sword blade, from the hilt to the middle. Cf. feeble noun 2, foible noun 1. m17.
2 The strong point of a person; the thing in which one excels. l17.

foible
1 A minor weakness or eccentricity in someone's character
2 Fencing. The part of a sword blade from the middle to the point. Compare with forte1.

[jean]

....having always assumed that both meanings had the same derivation...

But they do, don't they?

And the OED gives the spelling (and presumably pronunciation) fort as the earlier one in both cases.

I'm still waiting fro LMP to tell us where the newer pronunciation came from.

[french frank]

On forte: the first pronunciation that I heard was fortay (early childhood). But I stopped saying that (or thinking it as I didn't use it) when I heard other people saying fort.

MotEEFFF, MOtivv.

As far as I can make out from OED, discrete comes from the Latin meaning, whereas discreet came via French where the meaning had become modified. Ultimately the same source: discernere - discretum. English 'discerning' is usually close to 'discrete' as in (seeing a) difference. The French seems to have added the meaning of 'prudence/wisdom' whence discreet (and 'discerning' overlaps slightly).

[Lento]

Not sure German is Katie Derham's thing, from her pronunciation of Konrad Kunz.

[jean]

As far as I can make out from OED, discrete comes from the Latin meaning, whereas discreet came via French where the meaning had become modified. Ultimately the same source: discernere - discretum. English 'discerning' is usually close to 'discrete' as in (seeing a) difference. The French seems to have added the meaning of 'prudence/wisdom' whence discreet (and 'discerning' overlaps slightly).

When we have these doublets, it's usually because we've got one of them straight from Latin and the other via French.

I've noticed a curious tendency recently for people to write discrete when they clearly mean discreet. Do they think the second spelling looks a bit silly?

Perhaps the two will fall together again.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Congratulations to all boarders who still maintain the proper(?) 'fort' pronunciation despite the fact that Jean's post showing the OED pronunciations suggests ('formerly....') that this is now seen as somewhat old-fashioned. I wonder when 'formerly' ended? My 1972 Chambers still lists it as as 'incorrect'. FWIW the 1977 Funk & Wagnall shows both without any indications of 'correctness', though the monosyllable comes first.

My interest was first drawn to this word c1974 when at Uni. A friend studying Modern Languages returned from his year in Italy having been embarrassed to be pulled up by an educated Italian for pronouncing it as two syllables. I'd never heard it thus, and indeed still haven't. (Clearly I associate with the wrong sort of people) The pedant in me now probably avoids the word, but if I had to use it I would go for two syllables because otherwise I'd expect not to be understood

I'm still waiting fro LMP to tell us where the newer pronunciation came from.

I presume it is nothing more than widespread confusion with the musical term.

[Serial_Apologist]

I presume it is nothing more than widespread confusion with the musical term.

Which I'd always been told to pronounce FORTAY, assuming the e-ended word for aptitude to be Italian-derived. Have I been taught wrong??

[jean]

No indeed. Because that one really is Italian.

The other question, though, is why the French-derived noun forte isn't spelt fort.

[vinteuil]

Congratulations to all boarders who still maintain the proper(?) 'fort' pronunciation despite the fact that Jean's post showing the OED pronunciations suggests ('formerly....') that this is now seen as somewhat old-fashioned. I wonder when 'formerly' ended? My 1972 Chambers still lists it as as 'incorrect'. FWIW the 1977 Funk & Wagnall shows both without any indications of 'correctness', though the monosyllable comes first.

.

My 1933 OED only shows "fort"; the 1977 Supplement to the OED notes "now often pronounced forty".
The 1957 edn of Usage and Abusage states : "forte is, in Music, dissyllabic; elsewhere it has only one syllable"

I was born in 1952 and was brung up to say "fort". Most of the people I encounter probably now say "forty".

[vinteuil]

The other question, though, is why the French-derived noun forte isn't spelt fort.

The OED (helpfully?) says: "As in many other adoptions of Fr. adjs. used as sbs., the fem. form has been ignorantly substituted for the masc.: cf. locale, morale (of an army) etc."

[jean]

That's true - we don't often see naïf or blond in English.

I thought we usually managed fiancé and fiancée without too much difficulty, but I've just googled her fiancée and it gets far more hits than could be explained by women now being able to marry women.